Far right violence

[yung.carl.jung]

That seems wrong to me. Racism and racial tensions exist pretty much anywhere that we have different racial groups living together. Political ideologies are certainly informed by the existence of racism, but racism itself exists outside of politics.

I disagree with this, both are merely statements. It only becomes political when you say something like "therefore low IQ racial groups should not be allowed to immigrate to our nation".

Well...at the root of anti-Islamic sentiment is the idea that their views are too conservative.

Racism, as I already said, has not existed anywhere in this world until a few hundred years ago, precisely the enlightement. Don't make the mistake of confusing tribalism and ethnic conflicts with racism. Race as a concept comes with so much baggage already.

Race seems fairly natural, but it's actually the opposite. People in medieval Europe did not believe in being part of a white race. People in Africa did not see themselves as a united black race. There is more genetic variety among "blacks" as a group then there is difference between blacks and whites. If you want a fairly simple scientific explanation please try this statement by the AAA. I am not a natural speaker and already struggling.

http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102 (spring 01)/articles/aaa_race.html

They are not both merely statements. One imposes value (!) on these statistics, which was the big point. When you go from data to making conclusions about humans you are entering a different sphere.

Your last sentence is interesting. I do not at all think that this is the root of anti-Islamic sentiments. Rather I see those roots in Xenophobia, (I mean legitimate fear of the "others", "strangers") Media, especially the fact that news coverage of the Islamic world is entirely catastrophe/conflicts/human rights violations.., the ongoing Culture War, the barbarism of ISIS and other affiliated groups and so forth.

A lot of Islamophobes are hardcore conservatives themselves, so do you really believe that the root of their anti-Islamic sentiment is also them being too conservative? I'm genuinely curious!

 

[civver_764]

Racism, as I already said, has not existed anywhere in this world until a few hundred years ago, precisely the enlightement. Don't make the mistake of confusing tribalism and ethnic conflicts with racism. Race as a concept comes with so much baggage already.

Don't you think that might be because, up until a few hundred years ago, different races didn't really live together? I'm curious to know what you think the difference between racism and ethnic conflict is.

Your last sentence is interesting. I do not at all think that this is the root of anti-Islamic sentiments. Rather I see those roots in Xenophobia, (I mean legitimate fear of the "others", "strangers") Media, especially the fact that news coverage of the Islamic world is entirely catastrophe/conflicts/human rights violations.., the ongoing Culture War, the barbarism of ISIS and other affiliated groups and so forth.

A lot of Islamophobes are hardcore conservatives themselves, so do you really believe that the root of their anti-Islamic sentiment is also them being too conservative? I'm genuinely curious!

Yes I do. One of the main talking-points of anti-Islamic sentiment is that they will bring Sharia Law to our countries, and the reason that they don't like Sharia Law is because they see it as too socially conservative.

 

[Akka]

Because, as far as I know, though I could be wrong, "islamic terrorism" (a convenient if not completely accurate catch-all) isn't completely divorced from islam.

Yeah, well, mafioso dutifully go to the mass, doesn't mean they have a lot in common when it comes to values with the seven of Tibhirine despite being both nominally Christians.

 

[aelf]

It would seem so. However, as it was already pointed out (and which you conveniently ignored) there weren't any details about the attackers in those stories you posted. So while it may seem like far-right extremists did this, I'm not so sure. During the election we saw several instances of people committing violent acts and trying to make it look like Trump supporters did it. The most prominent instance being that guy who burned down his church and tried to make it look like Trump supporters were responsible. And that guy was a Hillary supporter if I'm not mistaken.

Evidence has already been provided. We have the guy who doesn't bother to find out anything for himself and the guy who doesn't read both in this thread. I guess all took the bait.

 

[Borachio]

Yeah, well, mafioso dutifully go to the mass, doesn't mean they have a lot in common when it comes to values with the seven of Tibhirine despite being both nominally Christians.

Very true.

On the other hand, IS's express intention is to establish an islamic state (the name kind of gives it away), and unless they're completely out of touch with reality and their own minds (always a possibility, I suppose), and unless the mafioso's express intention is to establish a Catholic state (for all I know it really is), then the comparison isn't quite complete, imo.

And ah yes, the seven brothers of Tibhirine. An impressive story. I had to look it up, despite having seen a film about them last year. Possibly murdered by islamists. Is that part of your point?

 

[Akka]

On the other hand, IS's express intention is to establish an islamic state (the name kind of gives it away), and unless they're completely out of touch with reality and their own minds (always a possibility, I suppose), and unless the mafioso's express intention is to establish a Catholic state (for all I know it really is), then the comparison isn't quite complete, imo.

I wasn't trying to make a complete comparison, as such "perfect" comparison is rather useless in this situation, I was just to illustrating a point.

And ah yes, the seven brothers of Tibhirine. An impressive story. I had to look it up, despite having seen a film about them last year. Possibly murdered by islamists. Is that part of your point?

Actually, no. I was just using the first example that jumped to my mind of Christians having a positive behaviour.

 

[Flying Pig]

Moderator Action: Perhaps fittingly, I have annexed the discussion about Greeks, Romans and barbarians to this World History thread.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Evidence has already been provided. We have the guy who doesn't bother to find out anything for himself and the guy who doesn't read both in this thread. I guess all took the bait.

Again. It's your thread. Why should I go looking for things to back up your OP if you can't be bothered to provide them yourself? You act like this is somehow unreasonable of me. You also act like asking for evidence is a bad thing too. Very strange.

 

[aelf]

It's alright, snowflake, everyone understands how you roll.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It's alright, snowflake, everyone understands how you roll.

Did I kill your family or something? Stop acting like a berk and back up your OP. If not, don't blame the lack of thoughtful discussion in your "meaningful" thread on other people.

 

[Lexicus]

Did I kill your family or something? Stop acting like a berk and back up your OP. If not, don't blame the lack of thoughtful discussion in your "meaningful" thread on other people.

As far as I can tell, the incident involving a 17 year old girl is not being investigated as a hate crime. Whereas the British authorities have referred to the van incident as a 'violent manifestation of Islamophobia' or something like that, and are investigating it as an act of terrorism. Of course, if your intent was actually to get information you could have discovered this all yourself in less than two minutes on Google.

 

[Yeekim]

Bah, beaten by Lexicus.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

As far as I can tell, the incident involving a 17 year old girl is not being investigated as a hate crime. Whereas the British authorities have referred to the van incident as a 'violent manifestation of Islamophobia' or something like that, and are investigating it as an act of terrorism. Of course, if your intent was actually to get information you could have discovered this all yourself in less than two minutes on Google.

I'm not sure what you think I'm asking for evidence of. I'm not doubting that these events occurred. But even if I was, you're still suggesting that it's somehow reasonable to expect me to spend two minutes on google to find my own evidence to back up someone else's OP. I mean yes, I suppose it would be unreasonable of me to keep asking other people to google for me for every single claim that comes up in the course of a discussion, but surely it's more than reasonable to expect an OP to actually stand on its own two feet in that regard?

But right now it doesn't matter because I'm still lolling at "you know what you did". The last time I heard that was a phone call at 1am from someone using a voice changer. Happy times.

 

[Lexicus]

it's more than reasonable to expect an OP to actually stand on its own two feet in that regard?

It is also reasonable for the OP to assume a certain base level of knowledge about the events it describes, and to expect people who don't have this knowledge and have no interest (or ability; perhaps you simply don't know how to use Google? I don't want to rule it out) in acquiring it themselves to simply refrain from posting in the thread.

Moving back on topic, I posted a chronicle of recent far-right violence in the US in the Congressman shooting thread recently; I think I will repost it here:

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/06/steve-scalise-shooting-right-wing-violence-bernie-sanders


"On May 20, a twenty-two-year-old “Alt-Reich Nation” member stabbed black US Army Lieutenant Richard Collins III to death.

Two days later, Florida police found explosive and bomb-making materials in the home of a group of neo-Nazis who had, bizarrely, been killed by their roommate who had recently converted to Islam.

Four days after that, a white supremacist in Portland killed two men and stabbed another after they tried to intervene as he embarked on a racist tirade on a commuter train.

Less than two weeks ago, Michael Treiman, the only Democratic candidate running for the mayor of Binghamton, New York, pulled out of the race after receiving death threats referencing his wife and children.

The former army veteran who killed a sixty-six-year old black man in March because he was black, to “make a statement” and as a “practice run” for a larger attack.

The white supremacist who planned a murder “in the spirit of Dylann Roof,” another white supremacist terrorist who had killed nine black churchgoers in June 2015 (one of whom was a state senator).

Hundreds of threatening phone calls, emails, voicemails, and other types of messages from neo-Nazis in the Montana town of Whitefish, where Richard Spencer hails from, directed at a Jewish womanThe white supremacist who tried to stab a black man in Houston.

The Kansas man who shot two Indian men in February, believing they were Middle Eastern and shouting racist epithets at them

The masked, white man who shot a Sikh man while telling him to “go back to your own country.”

Those are just incidents that took place in the United States, and only since January. They come on top of the 1,400 hate crime incidents that were recorded between the election and March 23, a number that’s almost certainly increased since then."


L o n e w o l v e s

 

[aelf]

Did I kill your family or something? Stop acting like a berk and back up your OP. If not, don't blame the lack of thoughtful discussion in your "meaningful" thread on other people.

No, I simply said everyone knows how you roll. And, true enough, it seems they do.

 

[Yeekim]

No, I simply said everyone knows how you roll. And, true enough, it seems they do.

Your attempt to assume moral high ground would be more convincing if your OP was more than 50% successful in providing examples of far-right violence.

 

[civver_764]

It is also reasonable for the OP to assume a certain base level of knowledge about the events it describes, and to expect people who don't have this knowledge and have no interest (or ability; perhaps you simply don't know how to use Google? I don't want to rule it out) in acquiring it themselves to simply refrain from posting in the thread.

Moving back on topic, I posted a chronicle of recent far-right violence in the US in the Congressman shooting thread recently; I think I will repost it here:

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/06/steve-scalise-shooting-right-wing-violence-bernie-sanders


"On May 20, a twenty-two-year-old “Alt-Reich Nation” member stabbed black US Army Lieutenant Richard Collins III to death.

Two days later, Florida police found explosive and bomb-making materials in the home of a group of neo-Nazis who had, bizarrely, been killed by their roommate who had recently converted to Islam.

Four days after that, a white supremacist in Portland killed two men and stabbed another after they tried to intervene as he embarked on a racist tirade on a commuter train.

Less than two weeks ago, Michael Treiman, the only Democratic candidate running for the mayor of Binghamton, New York, pulled out of the race after receiving death threats referencing his wife and children.

The former army veteran who killed a sixty-six-year old black man in March because he was black, to “make a statement” and as a “practice run” for a larger attack.

The white supremacist who planned a murder “in the spirit of Dylann Roof,” another white supremacist terrorist who had killed nine black churchgoers in June 2015 (one of whom was a state senator).

Hundreds of threatening phone calls, emails, voicemails, and other types of messages from neo-Nazis in the Montana town of Whitefish, where Richard Spencer hails from, directed at a Jewish womanThe white supremacist who tried to stab a black man in Houston.

The Kansas man who shot two Indian men in February, believing they were Middle Eastern and shouting racist epithets at them

The masked, white man who shot a Sikh man while telling him to “go back to your own country.”

Those are just incidents that took place in the United States, and only since January. They come on top of the 1,400 hate crime incidents that were recorded between the election and March 23, a number that’s almost certainly increased since then."


L o n e w o l v e s

Racial violence is not political violence. Do you consider anti-white crimes to be left-wing violence?

 

[aelf]

Your attempt to assume moral high ground would be more convincing if your OP was more than 50% successful in providing examples of far-right violence.

Well, some people said that a crap-waving contest to see which side is more violent is not a good thing. The OP made no claims of wanting to quantify the violence, merely to remind people that the far-right is not more peace-loving.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Well, some people said that a crap-waving contest to see which side is more violent is not a good thing. The OP made no claims of wanting to quantify the violence, merely to remind people that the far-right is not more peace-loving.

Something else I see from the right is the idea that the response, answer, or defense against violence is more violence. For example, as a result of the shooting of Steve Scalise and others, members of Congress have introduced bills that will allow them to circumvent concealed-carry laws around the country. Mo Brooks of Alabama has introduced a bill (or plans to, I'm not sure he's done it yet) that will allow members of Congress to carry weapons anywhere in the United States (except the Capitol building and anywhere the President or Vice-President is present). His bill has 21 co-sponsors, all Republican. Of course 21 out of 435 isn't a lot, and it makes sense that a Congressman would get his immediate allies on board before putting the bill before the whole body, but still, I think this kind of thing is typical of the left-right divide in the aftermath of these shootings: One side says there are too many guns, the other says there aren't enough of them, and who says what is almost perfectly predictable.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It is also reasonable for the OP to assume a certain base level of knowledge about the events it describes, and to expect people who don't have this knowledge and have no interest (or ability; perhaps you simply don't know how to use Google? I don't want to rule it out) in acquiring it themselves to simply refrain from posting in the thread.

Do you think you might possibly being overly charitable due to your ideological sympathies with the OP? I mean the stated intent of the OP is to provide 2 recent news stories that act as examples of something. The stories (or at least sections of them) are quoted in the OP and are treated as though they back up the thing that the OP is about. If the OP is assuming a certain base level of knowledge about these events, then why does it feel the need to quote the news stories at all?

But however you look at it, you're still being unreasonable. These are recent news stories, not fundamental self-evident truths or basic general knowledge we should all be expected to know, such as "2 + 2 = 4" or "Water is wet". Absolutely anyone can have missed a recent news story or two, so if you want to discuss them it's not really an unreasonable expectation that you quote the things you want to discuss. More to the point, if you want to discuss a particular aspect of the stories and you quote chunks of the stories that don't even mention that aspect of them, it's worthy of comment.

"Perhaps you don't know how to use Google" is just an asinine response.