Fear of perfection.

[Flying Pig]

Perfection terrifies the hell out of me. I still don't understand his bloody avatar.

 

[El_Machinae]

If we solve chess, we can find harder, more complex games to play. Solve those, and make even more complex games.

This is what I came to say, with an analogy. When I was a small child, I enjoyed timed flashcard games that involved single digit addition. Slightly older, and I enjoyed games of single digit multiplication.

Now, since I am more intelligent than I was as a small child, I'd find these games banal. What have I done? Found harder games. Even then, I still enjoy the occasional banal game ... I play minesweeper a few times a year, for example. And look how many people play Suddoku ...

Perfection is unattainable, but it's a worthwhile goal. We very desperately need to push for these technologies that augment health and intelligence and social well being. There's an incredible amount of human suffering in the world that can actually be 'cured'. Yes, there will be other sufferings invented as we cure the more basal ones, but these sufferings are quantitatively different. They're fundamentally less evil.

People call my dreams of immortality impossible. I think they're wrong. Heck, as far as I can tell, aging has only killed 93% of humans so far. We can bring down that ratio, if we're fast enough

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

This is what I came to say, with an analogy. When I was a small child, I enjoyed timed flashcard games that involved single digit addition. Slightly older, and I enjoyed games of single digit multiplication.

Now, since I am more intelligent than I was as a small child, I'd find these games banal. What have I done? Found harder games. Even then, I still enjoy the occasional banal game ... I play minesweeper a few times a year, for example. And look how many people play Suddoku ...

Perfection is unattainable, but it's a worthwhile goal. We very desperately need to push for these technologies that augment health and intelligence and social well being. There's an incredible amount of human suffering in the world that can actually be 'cured'. Yes, there will be other sufferings invented as we cure the more basal ones, but these sufferings are quantitatively different. They're fundamentally less evil.

People call my dreams of immortality impossible. I think they're wrong. Heck, as far as I can tell, aging has only killed 93% of humans so far. We can bring down that ratio, if we're fast enough

I think immortality would be a drag after a couple thousand years.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

...
Heck, as far as I can tell, aging has only killed 93% of humans so far. We can bring down that ratio, if we're fast enough

That number seems awfully high to me, or do you have a very wide definition of "death due to age"?

I think the age limit as it is now is pretty well placed. Peoples' morals usually don't improve with time.

 

[El_Machinae]

You're incredibly correct. Death has only been victorious 93% of the time*. And aging is one of death's minions. We're in the process of slaying her minions, and aging is on the list.

*simplistic. current humans: 7 billions. Total humans ever: 100 billion. This estimation is likely only counting young adults and older, and probably doesn't factor in childhood/infant mortality. Even if I'm off by a factor of ten, death has only been victorious 99.3% of the time, and we're quickly kicking the butts of famine & war. Childhood death is in the process of being greatly reduced. Starvation is slowly losing, too. The plague of aging should be considered an enemy.

 

[warpus]

Singularity

Kurzweilian nonsense

robots taking our jobs

Humans not having to work and robots being our slaves? Hooray!

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I will atempt to answer from the yoga point of wiev:

you got it!.

What if we solve life?. A perfect inmortal life.. game over?.

This is indeed the goal of yoga. But one doesnt look for immortality of human body which would be an absurdity on the face of it but for immortal consciousness. Once you realise your existence is much deeper and wider than the physical it slowly starts making sense. Once you achieve the immortality of your consciousness - which is a very high degree of perfection-the earthly game is indeed over for you. However there is no end to perfection. Just like the physical universe is expanding God itself is in process of expanding.

I gues I didn't myself clear.

do you know this story?: “When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer” -Plutarch

Is something like that kind of feeling.

For a hero-conqueror perfection may lay in placing the world at his feet and then cry but God-lover places the existence of the world in his heart with the oness-smile.

If we solve chess, we can find harder, more complex games to play. Solve those, and make even more complex games.

Perfection can be something static and dynamic in the same time. There is no end to it. Perfection lies in transcendence.

If we figure out how to have happy fulfilling lives for everyone, that would be great, but there would still be plenty to do and solve.

Once you achieve a certain goal its like a reaching a horizon. New goal appears...

I think immortality would be a drag after a couple thousand years.

This is probably very true becouse of the nature of our very limited physical existence. There has been an attempts and still continue for transforming the physical body itself through the yogic powers. There is a possibility to bring perfection into matter as well which will of course result in creating entirely new race(s) of beings in physical universe.

 

[zjintz]

The nerd fantasy that computers will, in the near future, acquire perfect knowledge of everything is more religious style faith than anything. Computers will always be merely tools in the human arsenal.

You don't know how much I hope you are right!. But I have this feeling...

If we figure out how to have happy fulfilling lives for everyone, that would be great, but there would still be plenty to do and solve.

I don't think that would be great, it would be boring. I hope there are things to do and solve forever. As Cervantes said “The journey is better than the inn".

I think it's more fear about an overestimation of the good nature of humans, about their progressiveness and overall ambitiousness. The Nazis did what they could to achieve their view of perfection and they used the science of their time to do it.

No, thats another problem.

People call my dreams of immortality impossible. I think they're wrong. Heck, as far as I can tell, aging has only killed 93% of humans so far. We can bring down that ratio, if we're fast enough

I made this question because I don't see inmortality and other major changes impossible. But still I'm wondering about the outcome of those changes. Inmortality is that good?

Humans not having to work and robots being our slaves? Hooray!

I'm not sure if thats good. What if I really love my job but is taken from me because something else does it faster , better and cheaper?. I'm already feeling bad for the auto racing drivers of the future.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

There's no such thing as perfection. It is only an idealistic abstraction. Therefore, any effort at perfection will never achieve it.

 

[Skwink]

I fear Perfection. He has robots to help him.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Humans not having to work and robots being our slaves? Hooray!

This may depends very much on the point of view again. I think the secret here lies in attitude/consciousness in which one does his work. If you think that only by doing socaled pleasant things in life you will achieve satisfaction I think you may be terribly mistaken. Look at body-builders; they do some most boring work in the world- lifting metal plates. Yet becouse of their attitude they can push limits of human physicality and they enjoy it...

I think it's more fear about an overestimation of the good nature of humans, about their progressiveness and overall ambitiousness. The Nazis did what they could to achieve their view of perfection and they used the science of their time to do it.

I dont know that much about Naciz but it may be that at certain instances there has been some fragments of truth, I would imagine... But there seem to be forces of destruction which may have their own interests in this world which are in opposition to generaly progressive nature of humans. One has to be carefull and try not to be their instrument- like the Naciz...

I don't think that would be great, it would be boring. I hope there are things to do and solve forever. As Cervantes said “The journey is better than the inn".

This is probably true- there is realy no end...
But strangely I am one of those who are looking forward to certain kind of immortal rest- like the Nirvana I suppose. With one exception: if I can face the future with immortal consciousness which is essentialy floaded with Bliss. Then I think I wouldnt mind to have eternity of work ahead of me as it would just mean something like dynamic version of the rest/Nirvana.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

There's no such thing as perfection. It is only an idealistic abstraction. Therefore, any effort at perfection will never achieve it.

I could point out different abstraction. There already is perfection. Not complete or perfect but certain substantial degree of it. It only depends on the point of view.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

No, thats another problem.

You mean we should assume the perfection you describe in the OP really is an absolute and achievable perfection? I wouldn't mind a presumed heaven, but it looked like you were describing something else.

 

[zjintz]

Heaven is something subjective.

The "perfection" I talk about is this potential lack of questions and problems in life (as the perfection in the chess game). No time limits, nothing to worry about. Is clear that's far away and may be unreal, therefore is pointless to worry about it, but lately this question has been wandering in my head.

 

[Singularity]

Perfection embraces the singularity and the coming of our Giant Death Robot overlords.

I embrace you as well!

 

[Antilogic]

Heaven is something subjective.

The "perfection" I talk about is this potential lack of questions and problems in life (as the perfection in the chess game). No time limits, nothing to worry about. Is clear that's far away and may be unreal, therefore is pointless to worry about it, but lately this question has been wandering in my head.

It was my understanding that chess isn't "solved" yet. We can't even solve a game that has been around for centuries, with dozens upon dozens of ingenious players developing our collective understanding of the game.

Here's a simplistic argument against it: you have a finite amount of knowledge, a finite understanding of an infinite universe. No matter what, there is always something new out there.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Heaven is something subjective.

The "perfection" I talk about is this potential lack of questions and problems in life (as the perfection in the chess game). No time limits, nothing to worry about. Is clear that's far away and may be unreal, therefore is pointless to worry about it, but lately this question has been wandering in my head.

Sounds boring.

 

[Souron]

Instead of chess, think of civilization. Although the games have some imbalances in their early releases, it's hard to imagine perfect play. And unlike chess, civilization has multiple, not to mention the many mods and alterations that continue to be released. With an ever growing pool of games, games are produced faster than they could be solved, especially if you enjoy working out the best strategy yourself.

Mathematics also seems an infinite source of new puzzles.

 

[NetGear]

I can play a perfect game of tic tac toe.

 

[El_Machinae]

I made this question because I don't see inmortality and other major changes impossible. But still I'm wondering about the outcome of those changes. Inmortality is that good?

It's not that immortality is 'that good', it's that death & suffering are 'that bad'. They're worthy of overcoming, just because of what they are. But, we also should be making a good world: this would be independent of whether we solve hunger, terror, violence, disease, and aging. But, I think that we're motivated to create a worthwhile life already.