1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[Feature] Additional Wonders

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    Oh hey that's cool! It looks like if the trees were scaled down a bit it's already ready to be put into the game.
     
  2. Enyavar

    Enyavar Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 16, 2015
    Messages:
    162
    I remember reading that you are planning to eventually make it a necessity for players to obtain more resources for larger empires, right?
    Like "1 fish will only feed the 5 largest cities, you need another fish for the next five cities, and so on. (or 8, or 10 cities, however you are going to scale it)

    If you really want to go through with it, why not tie this effect to at least some wonders so they create or multiply certain resources? In all cases below, I mean "virtual" copies that are not showing on the map, but which can be traded just like "Football Events", and that provide the usual benefits to your empire. Note, in some cases I'd think it's just an additional effect.

    Spoiler suggestions... :
    - The Tsukiji Fish Market could take each of the sea resources (whale, fish, crab, pearl, clam) that you secured, and create two additional copies for each. Instead of having "2 whale, 3 clam and 1 fish" --> "4 whale, 5 clam and 3 fish"
    - The Bourse (you are meaning the 1602 one in amsterdam, founded as a commodity exchange, right?) could probably also create additional resources - I'd say of all "renewable luxuries". So, 1 additional spice, pearl, fur, sugar, coffee, tea... for each 2 of them that you have secured via colonies or trade. (Should obsolete eventually in the industrial/modern era, when the effect downgrades to a mere +25% wealth bonus which will still be nice)
    - Torre de Belem: +1 copy of each happiness luxury in BFC of that city? (as additional effect?)
    - porcelain tower: +1 copy of each health luxury in BFC of that city? (as additional effect?)
    - house of wisdom: + 1 copy of each common health resource in BFC of that city? (as additional effect?)
    - probably some others, but they should always be related to famous trade institutions instead of the usual prestige wonders

    so, some more that I just invented:

    - There might be some rather early wonder (Great Quarry?) that would allow you to create one copy of stone and marble out of thin air. I was first thinking of Carrara here, but I'm uncertain: Should it require at least existing copies of both (then early civs like Babylon, Rome and Egypt would qualify) of should it require ~10 mountains in the BFC?
    - More specific and smaller, a less expensive wonder like "World Diamond Exchange" (no specifical archetype) could take 1 gem and create 2 copies for trade or the domestic happiness. Requires a gem resources that is not controlled by yourself, but traded in?
    - Muscat trading harbor: +1 copy of both spice and pearls, provided you have one of each already, requires the economy civic to be "below" free enterprise (e.g. redistribution, merchant/regulated trade), requires no grassland tile in BFC
    - Silk Road Hub: +1 silk. Must have a silk resource, "silk road" must be present, must not be in Chinese core. (Was thinking of Kashgar, Samarqand or Constantinople here)
    - Fair Trade Coffee Society (requires social welfare), doubles your copies of coffee available, commerce bonus for each coffee plantation around that city, light commerce penalty for all rival coffee. Requires Public Welfare.
    - Farben AG (cribbed from the Germans who were front-runner in the Chemical Industry --> late wonder, provides 2 dye resources out of thin air)

    not sure if the next one shouldn't be rather a national wonder?

    - Planter's corporation: +1 copy of all luxury resources that are obtained from plantations/orchards, heavy commerce penalty on all plantations (because e.g. the planters corporation in British Ceylon or in Brazil, DID create a resource boom, but at the same time overproduced and fell victim to prize instability.) Requires the civics of isolationalism/colonialism combined with regulated/free trade, may not be built in core. Maybe requires the Trading Company as present?

    more national resource wonders
    - Central Breeding program (+1 copy of sheep, cow, pigs, if you control at least one). I'd say it should require at least a +10 healthy city. Also, a rather high tech requirement, late renaissance+
    - Central Zoo (+1 copy of camels, horses, ivory - if you control at least one). Needs a healthy city, like above, and even higher tech requirement. late industrialism+
    - The National Seed Vault could provide one extra copy of all plant based resources in the game (wheat, potatos, rice, corn, banana), whether you control one of them or not. late modern era+, hyper-expensive
    - The Global Seed Vault (WW again) would require the National one, provides again one extra copy of the above, plus one copy of each of the luxury plants (spice, cotton, wine, coffee, tea, sugar). Even more hyper-expensive. Is it possible, to allow two copies of a world wonder?

    Don't know if there are also plans are to tie the use of strategic resouces to some limits - like iron, uranium, coal and oil? I mean, I can imagine restrictions like "one coal can only provide enough energy for two coal plants", "one uranium only for three nuclear plants". Could you restrict the number of factories to the number of all coal+iron+oil resources available in the empire? There are many possible national wonders and/or world wonders all around special industrial parks, like "Motor City" (+7 cars?) or "General Oil" (can substitute oil for coal) or "Standard Coal" (can substitute coal for oil), that require the presence of resource-exploiting companies. But as much as I'd like to have them, I already imagine how easily the technical advantage of a human player would dominate all AI competition.

    If you tie things down in even more detail as suggested above, you get into the gritty details fast. I know it from Realism Invictus. There are entire industries that require 1coal+1iron to create 1steel, and 1steel to create 1cars, and the cars are a happiness resurce. 1steel can also be used for 1gun factory, or 1rocket factory. Brick industries, Furniture industries, household appliances industries, manufacturer specialists... it IS a great mod, but I don't think you're going in that much detail.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    That is an interesting proposal, thanks for sharing. The new resource effect rules are already implemented and accessible in the git version, and I have been thinking about tying a wonder to the system. It is probably best if these are secondary effects like you mentioned so it's not too rare that the right combination of wonder and resources becomes available for you.

    I especially like the effects in relation to Torre de Belem and the Porcelain Tower. For The Bourse (which is indeed the Amsterdam Bourse) I think it would be even cooler though if the effect was inverted, for example +1 commerce for every unused resource effect? That would encourage accumulating resources while keeping a small empire.

    Your reference to Realism Invictus is kind of accurate because I'd like to eventually have a system that is similar in intent, so there is more to come for resouces. But what I have in mind better integrates and replaces existing game systems (in my opinion) so hopefully it doesn't end up being too complex.
     
    Publicola likes this.
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    New update:
    - wonder constants should be fixed now, check for Space Elevators appearing where the Plague should be
    - implemented Mount Athos effect: double GPP from buildings
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    Merged a pull request by merijn_v1:
    - new art for Gardens by the Bay and Silver Tree Fountain
    - improved Harmandir Sahib art
    - improved Tsukiji Fish Market and Gardens by the Bay buttons
    - included Metropolitain art

    @merijn_v1 Where did you get that Silver Tree Fountain model, did you make it yourself? It looks great, and so does everything else here.

    Looks like the Metropolitain can be included soon. Any ideas for the effect? My best ideas right now are either the obvious free Public Transport in all cities, or alternatively +1 commerce for all buildings in the city.

    With all these art improvements, I am wondering if we can find something better for the Floating Gardens. The current model is rather abstract and doesn't really look like the Floating Gardens would have.
     
    1SDAN and Steb like this.
  6. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    603
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    @merijn_v1, can I ask what was the matter with the buttons? So that I can take that into account if I ever make more. In fact, if there are buttons you'd like to improve or replace, Leoreth, I'd be happy to contribute.

    The latter effect is nice and fits the fact that it should be most useful in a highly developed city. It could also be given the same effect as the Public Transport (which could also be built, giving the effect twice to the city).

    By the way, the Alamut Fortress currently gives +2 EXP to spies, but your spreadsheet says it should be +10.

    Some wonders could use a "Double production speed with X":
    • Amber Room: amber (when on the new map) (obviously)
    • Atomium: aluminum
    • Cheomseongdae: stone (maybe not if Korea has no access to stone, though)
    • La Mezquita: marble (or marble + stone like the Sagrada Familia)
    • Louvre: it builds 50% faster with marble; why not 100% like the others?
    • Mole Antonelliana: I don't think it's made of marble, so remove that
    • Salt Cathedral: salt (when on the new map)
    • San Marco Basilica: marble
    • Silver Tree Fountain: silver
    • Sistine Chapel: since the real wonder is the artwork, the marble bonus could be removed (and given to San Marco)
    • Versailles: marble (instead of stone, or in addition to it like the Sagrada Familia)
    I've also been thinking about the industrial Japanese wonder that has been discussed. I don't think the Tokyo Imperial palace is a particularly interesting wonder anymore. But I think the Yasukuni Shrine (1869), where the Japanese war dead are honored, would be a good fit, especially with the effect I suggested last time:
    • Pagan Temples can be built irrespective of civics and state religion, and can coexist with state religion temples
    • +3 EXP, +1 :) from Pagan Temple
    • +1 :hammers: (in the city with Yasukuni) per Pagan Temple
    • Requires Buddhism
    • Tech: Nationalism (thematic, but a bit early), Psychology (a bit late), Ballistics (because military) or maybe Assembly Line
    This represents State Shinto: the partly religious, partly patriotic ideology that developed in Japan from the Meiji period onwards. It's stronger than a flat EXP or other bonus in all cities, but requires to invest more hammers. I think building Shinto shrines in all cities would be very thematic. It would also be useful with expansion, as it would basically allow a cheaper barracks to be built in all cities. Also, since "pagan" religions have been important to other East Asian countries in general, it's not a problem if another Buddhist civ builds it.

    I'm not aware of any art specific to Yasukuni, but presumably a generic Japanese/Asian temple could do.
     
    Makudomi, BasilBerylium and 1SDAN like this.
  7. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    The city of the original vlaai
    The Silver Tree Fountain model is a combination of model created by others. I took the existing Asian Palace and removed the central tower. I replaced the tower with this fountain. Then I took the market model from this set. (Left one) I removed the baskets and the lantern and closed the tree entrance. I gave it a silver-ish texture and placed it on top of the fountain. I turned out exactly what I had in mind.

    I simply searched for "fountain" and "tree" in the database to find the models.

    Here is a more accurate model of the Floating Gardens. A lake with some of this inside could possibly work.

    Your buttons have some "sharp edges". See the image. I cut off the edges to make the button edge more smooth.

    I included a kind of template I use when I create buttons. Everything outside the template should be cut off. There should be 1 row of alpha pixels above the button, 1 left, 2 at the bottom and 2 to the right to allign the button with the other buttons.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    hnrysml and 1SDAN like this.
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    I haven't compared them directly, but I think the point was that they were missing rounded edges (i.e. alpha channel in the DDS). I always use the button maker tool from CFC to create a BMP for the button, and then use DTXBMP to combine that BMP and the standard button alpha channel into the DDS.

    Yeah, that was the intent. Some wonders reward population but none reward having a lot of buildings. Having a second Public Transport effect is also interesting though.

    Noted.

    In some cases I chose inaccurate building materials because the "correct" location for the wonder doesn't have that resource nearby, that's for example a problem with using Silver for Silver Tree Fountain. Another obvious addition with the new resources is Jade for the Emerald Buddha Temple. I'll review this later on.

    That's an interesting idea, State Shinto is an important phenomenon and using a wonder to model it works well.

    That's really creative!

    I don't know, it looks quite crude to me. Maybe it is better to just use the Corn model (i.e. the resource) and place it on a lake. Oasis art could work for that? Similar to what Shalimar gardens does.

    Speaking of Shalimar Gardens, I noticed its water texture was set to team colours (if you click on it multiple times the water changes to a random civ's colour every time), which isn't really intended. I haven't looked into it so I might be able to fix it myself, but if you want to fix it that would also be great.
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  9. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    The city of the original vlaai
    Thanks.

    I will try something like that. Let's see what the result will be.

    IIRC, that is only in the pedia and works fine ingame. I can take a look at it. The Grand Channel also has this problem.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    Weird. I assume part of the texture defines what is being used as team colour.
     
  11. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    The city of the original vlaai
    Here a concept of the oasis without palm trees, but with corn. I made a version with a farm and without one.

    It is a bit difficult to see it, because the colors blend in a bit too much with the surroundings.

    EDIT:
    Added another version with some floating soil and a farm texture.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    1SDAN likes this.
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    Yeah, the contrast is kind of low. Maybe make everything larger, and change the water to a darker or more brackish colour?
     
  13. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,276
    Location:
    The city of the original vlaai
    Version 0.2

    Increased saturation of the lake. Made it larger so it is better visible.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Steb

    Steb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    603
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    The first two look a bit too much like some random plants growing in a marsh, but I like the little floating farms in the 3rd concept.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    need my speed likes this.
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    Hmm not sure if it's the right approach. Maybe using LSYSTEM_RIVER with the floodplains art plus Corn?
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    New update:
    - implemented effects for Prambanan, Salsal Buddha, Krak des Chevaliers, University of Sankore and Notre Dame
    - corrected Alamut effect to +10 experience for spies
     
  17. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2015
    Messages:
    288
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Quezon City, PHL
    Are there any suggested obsoletion techs already? I'll try coming up with a list for the new wonders plus some of the old ones (e.g. Ishtar Gate).
     
    1SDAN and soul-breathing like this.
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Fluffy Boy Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    31,583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dark World
    No, I wanted to do that later (I usually test wonder effects with the 1700 AD scenario so it's easier if they aren't obsoleted already). But it would help a lot if you could look into it. In particular expiration techs should be evenly spread so that one tech doesn't obsolete too many wonders (right now every tech obsoletes at most one wonder, would be good if it's never more than two now).
     
  19. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2015
    Messages:
    288
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Quezon City, PHL
    How many columns should there be from the enabling tech to the obsoletion tech? I'm afraid there are a lot of the new wonders which in real life were only utilized for a short time.

    Anyway, I made a copy of the Google Sheets spreadsheet posted in this thread and put my suggestions here. Bright yellow ones are existing ones that are changed. https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ak26bwNbPWbFgccb0GcS88j3y0X9UA
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  20. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    301
    Hey, not sure if Global Seed Vault is being included or if anyone mentioned this but I think it should have a latitude requirement similar to Space Elevator, except Arctic/Antarctic not Subtropical.
     
    BasilBerylium, 1SDAN and h0spitall3rz like this.

Share This Page