Federal Judge rules Utah's ban on gay marrage illegal. Internet about to explode

[Evie]

There is a case to be made - and it is a case that is being made by well-regarded experts and professors in the legal community - that Christian scripture did in fact have some characteristic not so commonly found in other religions that did favor the rise of secularism. Quotes like "My kingdom is not of this world" and the infamous Render unto Caesar did arguably lay the first hints of the notion of keeping religious obligation and state obligation separate, thus laying the first bricks of what would eventually become the separation of church and state.

Personally, I would rather say that those elements in scripture made christianity less hostile than other religions to the rise of the secular state...but less hostile, not favorable. Christianity was still an obstacle to the rise of the secular state (and still is), but one that yielded more easily than most.

 

[Flying Pig]

I would argue that 'textbook' Christianity is different, as with all religions, to 'applied' Christianity. People's religion is more complicated than the contents of their scriptures; it encompasses beliefs, traditions and prejudices which both augment and influence their interpretation of raw religious material of scripture, doctrine and liturgy. After all, the same scriptures provided the basis for the highly-mythologising medieval Catholicism, Cromwell's republican puritanism and modern Anglicanism. Perhaps the best example of this phenomenon would be the ability of both Unionists and Confederates to fight the American Civil War claiming Biblical backing for their stance on slavery.

 

[timtofly]

There is a case to be made - and it is a case that is being made by well-regarded experts and professors in the legal community - that Christian scripture did in fact have some characteristic not so commonly found in other religions that did favor the rise of secularism. Quotes like "My kingdom is not of this world" and the infamous Render unto Caesar did arguably lay the first hints of the notion of keeping religious obligation and state obligation separate, thus laying the first bricks of what would eventually become the separation of church and state.

Personally, I would rather say that those elements in scripture made christianity less hostile than other religions to the rise of the secular state...but less hostile, not favorable. Christianity was still an obstacle to the rise of the secular state (and still is), but one that yielded more easily than most.

There could also be the case that if a secular guy named Constantine had not kidnapped Christianity, a secular state could have been recognized sooner. I am not ruling out that a strong Christian influence may make a state more palatable for all. I just think that morality cannot be legislated and must be kept at a personal level. Forcing people into a certain mold, can lead to restrictions against opposing view points. Christians are not exempt from being oppressive and over bearing. I would even be so bold as to say, that if the Protestants had not been brave enough to stand up to the Church, we may never of had a secular state.

 

[IglooDame]

A secular state like, say, what the Romans had, circa 1AD? The state that allowed the Jews to practice their religion within their territory, ultimately allowing for a certain fellow to be born?

 

[Evie]

Any organized, group religion, by nature, is going to be more of a hindrance than a help to the notion of a secular society, because one preach a universal system of morality and the other advocate that this universal morality cannot be universally applied.

But again, in Christianity defense, it was perhaps uniquely suited to being less of an obstacle.

(The romans I'd argue practiced tolerance and religious syncretism more than secularism, as the Ottomans later would also do)

 

[timtofly]

A secular state like, say, what the Romans had, circa 1AD? The state that allowed the Jews to practice their religion within their territory, ultimately allowing for a certain fellow to be born?

Would you call pagans secular?

 

[Gori the Grey]

God = Creator of the entire universe: Study of universe = mode of understanding God: Study of universe = science: Science = grounds for secular state?

 

[emzie]

God = Creator of the entire universe: Study of universe = mode of understanding God: Study of universe = science: Science = grounds for secular state?

I question one of your premises.

 

[Zelig]

Welp, I think church is going to be totally insufferable for me for the next few months.


If you thought this was a political football NOW, wait until you see the aftermath for when the fights goes to probably the single most conservative state in the US.

WELP

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57291925-78/ban-judge-sex-court.html.csp

AND the actual ruling, here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/192782903/Amendment-3-Ruling

I think that's really the key thing here - all the media coverage and hang-wringing about gays in the USA is really a temporary local thing that will go away once America modernizes and stops discriminating against people based on sexual orientation.

Don't be so hard on him for accidentally saying liberal instead of radical leftist extremist. It's an easy mistake to make.

I dunno, I don't mix up "people who like freedom" with "communists" very often.

ACTUAL OP UPDATES:

The request for a stay was denied, but that hasn't stopped a few counties in Utah from trying to stop the process. A few counties in Utah have outright refused to obey the courts, and then closed their clerks offices entirely, rather than give licenses. That includes Utah County, the second largest in the state.

Way to defend traditional marriage, by making sure NOBODY can get married.

I'd do the same thing, but for entirely the opposite reason.

 

[timtofly]

I think that's really the key thing here - all the media coverage and hang-wringing about gays in the USA is really a temporary local thing that will go away once America modernizes and stops discriminating against people based on sexual orientation.

I think that issue was settled years ago, and yet people are free to discriminate if they chose to.

 

[Zelig]

I think that issue was settled years ago, and yet people are free to discriminate if they chose to.

I think that's really the key thing here - all the media coverage and hang-wringing about gays in the USA is really a temporary local thing that will go away once America modernizes and stops discriminating legislating discrimination against people based on sexual orientation.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'd do the same thing, but for entirely the opposite reason.

I think the gay rights agenda has the significantly better solution given the two as options.

Curious, why would you admit to agreeing with the policy goals of some of the Americans most dedicated to throwing humane secular governance backwards? Does advocating throwing human secular governance backwards somehow become a goodness if you aren't a religious American?

 

[Zelig]

I think the gay rights agenda has the significantly better solution given the two as options.

Curious, why would you admit to agreeing with the policy goals of some of the Americans most dedicated to throwing humane secular governance backwards? Does advocating throwing human secular governance backwards somehow become a goodness if you aren't a religious American?

I don't think their end-game policy goal is to eliminate government or religious sanctioning of marriage.

I'd see my marriage to my pet goldfish as performed by myself as legitimate as Jimbob's marriage to his human female as performed by his preferred deity-agent.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Your pet goldfish can't consent to the ceremony. It won't even remember the ceremony is happening two minutes from now.

This is the main reason why the bestiality slippery slope routing is total bull crap.

 

[timtofly]

Well there has been that start on allowing chimps personhood...

 

[Evie]

Not all persons are considered apt to legally consent at all times, eg children, mentally differently abled, etc

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It won't even remember the ceremony is happening two minutes from now.

Like so many pieces of common knowledge, this is false. Experiments have shown that goldfish can remember things for at least 3 months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish#Intelligence

 

[Arachnofiend]

That doesn't really change my main point that the goldfish isn't capable of accepting a marriage proposal and therefore cannot be married. Neat fact though, I'll keep that in mind so I can "well, actually" people like the jerk I am at a later date.

 

[Zelig]

Your pet goldfish can't consent to the ceremony. It won't even remember the ceremony is happening two minutes from now.

This is the main reason why the bestiality slippery slope routing is total bull crap.

My pet goldfish can't consent to being my pet either.

 

[Farm Boy]

My pet goldfish can't consent to being my pet either.

Indeed, as living chattel it cannot enter a property rights agreement, nor can it default as power of attorney, or any of the other key components of marriage. This is somewhat more key to the issue than is consent, hence the ''slippery slope'' of married bestiality isn't even such, it's more a sheer cliff that would have to be conquered with the catapult of insanity.