Feedback: Buildings and Wonders

[Keinpferd]

Revise Tavern to be: no effect on Trade Routes, one free artist (keep other features.)

Now there would not be two buildings that effect Trade Routes in the same tech column.

The concept is that the rule of law is important for encouraging trade.

Historically Taverns were a gathering spot for poets, painters, musicians, writers, etc.
Also I believe Taverns with courtyards were an early place to put on plays.

 

[Nightstar]

Bug in the Brandenburg Gate world wonder: It provides GP points towards a "Spy" instead of a "Great Spy", which seems to generate (annoying but not game-breaking) errors every turn after it is built.

Going into Civilization IV/Beyond the Sword/Mods/History Rewritten/Assets/XML/Buildings/CIV4BuildingInfos.xml and changing the line

<GreatPeopleUnitClass>UNITCLASS_SPY</GreatPeopleUnitClass>

to

<GreatPeopleUnitClass>UNITCLASS_SPY_GREAT</GreatPeopleUnitClass>

seems to correct the problem without impacting anything else (as far as I can tell).

 

[Xyth]

Discussion shifted from the Corporations thread:

I assume Prime Timber will make wooden ships and wooden siege units cheaper to build. It should not apply for example to cannons or cruisers.

It's applied to units individually so it won't affect units units past the Trebuchet and Ship of the Line. I'm not sure whether it should affect the Ironclad or not. The Drydock unlocks at Hydraulics which is around the time when the switch from wooden to metal ships occurs so its production bonus will be the one that's relevant to metal ships.

Shipwright could instead be Shipyard, which could come in earlier, perhaps at Navigation or Astronomy.

Shipyard sounds much too modern to me, Shipwright feels more appropriate for the era. Artisanry isn't too much past Astronomy and needed something else; the nautical techs in that bottom row are pretty full and I think it's good to have at least one nautical building unlocked in a different part of the tree.

Would Shipwright (or Shipyard) only apply to wooden ships?
The Dock also gives experience to ships; will this be changed to only apply to metal ships?

The experience from the Shipwright and the Drydock will stack. It's tricky to separate them into wooden and metal ships without having to reconfigure naval units completely. I haven't decided how much xp each should grant but I think the combined total should be 6, like Barracks + Stables for Mounted units.

In summary, the production bonuses won't apply to both ship types but the experience bonus will.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Not to be picky, but "Shipyards" or "Dockyards" go back to ancient times.
As per the Wikipedia quote below.

Doesn't the name "Shipwright" refer to a person rather than a building?

I agree that Artisanry could use something, but so can Astronomy, and the timing seems to make more sense historically.
(Any way to make the building available at Astronomy and have Artisanry provide some boost.)

"The world's earliest known dockyards were built in the Harappan port city of Lothal circa 2400 BC in Gujarat, India. Lothal's dockyards connected to an ancient course of the Sabarmati river on the trade route between Harappan cities in Sindh and the peninsula of Saurashtra when the surrounding Kutch desert was a part of the Arabian Sea.

Lothal engineers accorded high priority to the creation of a dockyard and a warehouse to serve the purposes of naval trade. The dock was built on the eastern flank of the town, and is regarded by archaeologists as an engineering feat of the highest order. It was located away from the main current of the river to avoid silting, but provided access to ships in high tide as well.

The name of the ancient Greek city of Naupactus means "shipyard" (combination of the Greek words &#957;&#945;&#973;&#962; naus ship, boat and &#960;&#942;&#947;&#957;&#965;&#956;&#953; pêgnumi, pegnymi builder, fixer). Naupactus' reputation in this field extends to the time of legend, where it is depicted as the place where the Heraclidae built a fleet to invade the Peloponnesus."

 

[Xyth]

I play on Huge maps. Therefore, city maintenance for distance is very important.

It scales so it's important for all map sizes.

Prior to Courthouses there is no direct way to deal with city maintenance, and relatively soon afterwards there are overlapping ways to deal with city maintenance.
I think it would be better if there were some earlier way to diminish city maintenance, but not as much as courthouses currently do.

This is something I have been considering. I wanted the Courthouse to be available later because I don't want it to be too easy to manage large empires too early. Two increments of 25% would be better though, for the reasons you describe.

On a related note, does city maintenance for distance depend on map size?
Does the effect on trade routes of distance depend on map size?

Yes to both.

 

[Xyth]

Apologies for the multiple posts, I'm out of town for a few days and the forum app on my phone doesn't support multi-quotes.

Proposed new building City Hall. Cuts maintenance costs by 25%.
Most logical tech seems to be Record Keeping although Mathematics is also possible.
Cost maybe a little less than Harbor.
Perhaps it could have an espionage boost on the same logic as Jail.

City Hall sounds medieval or later to me. I'm not sure when I'd want the first -25% maintenance reduction to be placed but definitely not in or near the ancient era.

Something else to consider is the Seasonal Palace. Currently this requires a certain number of Courthouses but I think this could be changed to an earlier building. I think this might be a more effective and interesting solution.

Revise Courthouse to be: cuts maintenance costs by 25% rather than 50%, add 25% trade route yield (keep other features.)

I think the Courthouse would still be quite desirable at -25% maintenance without any compensation added.

Revise Tavern to be: no effect on Trade Routes, one free artist (keep other features.)

Now there would not be two buildings that effect Trade Routes in the same tech column.

I can't remember how I've assigned artist slots. I'll take a look when I get home.

 

[Xyth]

Bug in the Brandenburg Gate world wonder: It provides GP points towards a "Spy" instead of a "Great Spy", which seems to generate (annoying but not game-breaking) errors every turn after it is built.

Oops! Good spotting, I'll get that fixed. Incidentally, was the movie displaying properly when you built it, and did the great general appear as expected?

 

[Nightstar]

Oops! Good spotting, I'll get that fixed. Incidentally, was the movie displaying properly when you built it, and did the great general appear as expected?

I got the free Great General and the bonus to Great General points seems to be working correctly, but I don't recall the movie playing.

 

[Howard Mahler]

There have been discussions about there being too little commerce in HR.
I am not sure this is true, but one way to help this is to move earlier some of the reductions in maintenance and the increases to commerce, research, etc.

I do not like the movement of the Seasonal Palace earlier. As a national wonder it fits the pattern of some others.
I think something like City Hall or Provincial Headquarters, or whatever you want to call it would be a better early solution. In ancient times, empires had in large provincial cities a local official with some power. This local official helped to manage the city and province. This is what I am trying to represent. I do not pay much attention to the eras, but it takes a long time to get to Redistribution.

Some other early buildings that help commerce, etc. would also help.
For example Trading Post could give +10% commerce.
(Not sure we ant or need more trade route help, given Harbor is +50%.)

Kiln gives a plus to commerce (or coins). After that the first buildings to help are Library and Harbor.

I agree Courthouse would still be worthwhile at 25% effect on maintenance.
In terms of hammers, it is either underpriced currently at 50% or would be overpriced at 25% with the current hammers. (Both could be true.) Perhaps 25% effect on maintenance plus 25% trade route would need to cost more hammers than currently.

Apologies for the multiple posts, I'm out of town for a few days and the forum app on my phone doesn't support multi-quotes.



City Hall sounds medieval or later to me. I'm not sure when I'd want the first -25% maintenance reduction to be placed but definitely not in or near the ancient era.

Something else to consider is the Seasonal Palace. Currently this requires a certain number of Courthouses but I think this could be changed to an earlier building. I think this might be a more effective and interesting solution.



I think the Courthouse would still be quite desirable at -25% maintenance without any compensation added.



I can't remember how I've assigned artist slots. I'll take a look when I get home.

 

[Xyth]

There have been discussions about there being too little commerce in HR.
I am not sure this is true, but one way to help this is to move earlier some of the reductions in maintenance and the increases to commerce, research, etc.

They're somewhat separate issues. Keinpferd is concerned with a lack of commerce in the very early game, prior to Redistribution. Neither shifting the Seasonal Palace nor a new maintenance reduction building will help there.

He suggested converting the Kiln into an improvement, which may have some potential. This appeals because it could be a source of early commerce that gets replaced by later improvements, rather than lasting all game.

I do not like the movement of the Seasonal Palace earlier. As a national wonder it fits the pattern of some others.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?

I think something like City Hall or Provincial Headquarters, or whatever you want to call it would be a better early solution. In ancient times, empires had in large provincial cities a local official with some power. This local official helped to manage the city and province. This is what I am trying to represent. I do not pay much attention to the eras, but it takes a long time to get to Redistribution.

I would not be placing any new maintenance reduction building earlier than Redistribution. In the ancient era it is meant to be very difficult to have a large empire and it's detrimental the progression of the game to change that.

If I did add such a building it would be late classical at the absolute earliest. Maintenance reduction is very powerful and scales significantly. This is why the Seasonal Palace solution is tempting; it's effective for only part of your empire and thus more in line with ramping up the ability to maintain large empires slowly.

This could potentially be done in addition to splitting the maintenance reduction though.

 

[Xyth]

Since unit costs would be influenced on a per-unit basis, much as specific wonders get production bonuses with Stone or Marble or whatever... I would assume he can specify that ships get constructed faster with Prime Timber.

Yep, it works just like Stone and Marble.

Although if you double the production rate ships are going to be dirt cheap. Either the civilizations with Prime Timber have a totally crushing naval advantage (which may be intended), or you effectively halve the cost of wooden ships for all nations, in which case you really ought to bump up their raw hammer costs... although that penalizes civilizations which lack it.

I'm definitely not doubling production (+100%). I'll set it to either +25% or +50%. Prime Timber won't be too rare but you can't harvest it until you have Lumbermills (unlocked at Machinery). Until then it's basically just a forest tile with 1 extra production.

 

[Howard Mahler]

We seem to be talking past one another to some extent.
It is probably my fault.

I suggested putting the City Hall at Redistribution or Mathematics.
Your replied you would "not be placing any new maintenance reduction building earlier than Redistribution." I do not think anyone suggested that.

Kiln as an improvement I do not see as worthwhile. Kiln is a useful early building as is. Getting rid of it as a building reduces commerce.

Being able to build a cottage very early, but not allowing it to grow until later, would make some sense and might address the some of the concerns.
(One could have a series of techs allow growth to hamlet, village, town, if that is doable.)

Personally, I do not see the need to change things a lot prior to Redistribution.
I do not share "Keinpferd is concerned with a lack of commerce in the very early game, prior to Redistribution."

There are early sources of commerce not present in BTS that are present in HR.
Commerce from jungles.
Commerce from savanahs.
Redistribution adds commerce to mines and camps.
Reefs give extra commerce.
So it is not all one way.

Personally I think the problem is the the tendency to hit a wall some where from around the Redistribution column to about the Guilds column.

The Seasonal Palace requires N buildings (courthouses) similar to many other National Wonders. I would not change this good game mechanic. Changing this to N City Halls (or whatever the name) would move the Seasonal Palace earlier. As explained, City Halls really represent the better organization of the empire through a set of provincial governors with some authority to run the routine affairs.
I think allowing the building of a Seasonal Palace early will create more problems than it will solve. A single (expensive) building will substantially reduce the distance maintenance costs in a substantial part of the empire where they were highest.

If it is felt that something must be done in the very early game, minor fiddling with early tech costs, etc. would probably be a better approach.

They're somewhat separate issues. Keinpferd is concerned with a lack of commerce in the very early game, prior to Redistribution. Neither shifting the Seasonal Palace nor a new maintenance reduction building will help there.

He suggested converting the Kiln into an improvement, which may have some potential. This appeals because it could be a source of early commerce that gets replaced by later improvements, rather than lasting all game.



I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?



I would not be placing any new maintenance reduction building earlier than Redistribution. In the ancient era it is meant to be very difficult to have a large empire and it's detrimental the progression of the game to change that.

If I did add such a building it would be late classical at the absolute earliest. Maintenance reduction is very powerful and scales significantly. This is why the Seasonal Palace solution is tempting; it's effective for only part of your empire and thus more in line with ramping up the ability to maintain large empires slowly.

This could potentially be done in addition to splitting the maintenance reduction though.

 

[Xyth]

We seem to be talking past one another to some extent.
It is probably my fault.

I suggested putting the City Hall at Redistribution or Mathematics.
Your replied you would "not be placing any new maintenance reduction building earlier than Redistribution." I do not think anyone suggested that.

Yeah I was just pointing out that maintenance reduction isn't the appropriate means to address what Keinpferd is concerned about.

That said, I feel even Mathematics might be too early. I'd need to be home with all my charts and lists before deciding where I think would be better.

Kiln as an improvement I do not see as worthwhile. Kiln is a useful early building as is. Getting rid of it as a building reduces commerce.

Well you'd be able to build several of them around each city so that would increase commerce. Later once they've been replaced with other improvements you'd be down a couple commerce though, yes. That's easily restored elsewhere though.

Being able to build a cottage very early, but not allowing it to grow until later, would make some sense and might address the some of the concerns.

The reason I delay cottages is partly because they're ahistorical that early but largely because they quickly become the essential improvement for getting ahead, to the point where chopping + cottages is basically mandatory early gameplay. It's like this in BTS and frankly I find it boring as hell.

Delaying them leaves time to develop your land and grow your economy in other ways, so that when they do become available you have to give more consideration to where and when to place them.

(One could have a series of techs allow growth to hamlet, village, town, if that is doable.)

Ive looked at this in the past and it wasn't technically possible if I remember correctly. I'm not all that fond of the idea anyway, it's good to have some mechanics that aren't tied to the tech tree.

Personally, I do not see the need to change things a lot prior to Redistribution.
I do not share "Keinpferd is concerned with a lack of commerce in the very early game, prior to Redistribution."

I don't either, for the most part. A bit more (temporary?) commerce wouldn't hurt but certainly nothing drastic needs to be done.

Personally I think the problem is the the tendency to hit a wall some where from around the Redistribution column to about the Guilds column.

Could you elaborate on this?

The Seasonal Palace requires N buildings (courthouses) similar to many other National Wonders. I would not change this good game mechanic.

Neither! I'm merely proposing it could require an earlier building than the Courthouse.

I think allowing the building of a Seasonal Palace early will create more problems than it will solve. A single (expensive) building will substantially reduce the distance maintenance costs in a substantial part of the empire where they were highest.

Good point.

Changing this to N City Halls (or whatever the name) would move the Seasonal Palace earlier. As explained, City Halls really represent the better organization of the empire through a set of provincial governors with some authority to run the routine affairs.

That's roughly what I'm thinking too. I just need to have a think about appropriate naming, era placement, and art.

 

[Keinpferd]

The reason I delay cottages is partly because they're ahistorical that early but largely because they quickly become the essential improvement for getting ahead, to the point where chopping + cottages is basically mandatory early gameplay. It's like this in BTS and frankly I find it boring as hell.

Delaying them leaves time to develop your land and grow your economy in other ways, so that when they do become available you have to give more consideration to where and when to place them.

I like, that you're dismissing the boring one-dimensional have-to's from BTS.

Here's my capital from my Isabella game on Emperess:

Spoiler :

There wasn't any better location for this kind of city with more cottageable tiles, but it still puts out a fair amount of science. It makes quiet a difference, whether your cottages are up either at 1200 BC or around 200 AD, shortly after you completed your Academy, when the 100% science boost kicks in.

I'm not proposing to restore the "mandatory" early cottages, I'm only asking for one or more alternate, equally good sources of commerce to turn into research. As said before, the three beakers per specialist from Representation are gone, as well, and so are the unlimited scientists from Caste System.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Suggested revision to address other peoples stated concerns.

Cottages become available with Agriculture, or similar very early tech.
(First permanent settlements were usually associated with agriculture.)
(Allows you to improve grasslands and plains, when you can not build a farm due to lack of irrigation. Currently there is no improvement available early on.)

Cottages do not grow.

Hamlets become available to be built with Employment.
(Hamlets cost more to build than cottages and can replace other improvements including cottages.)
Hamlets grow as per currently.
(May want to increase the time to grow from a hamlet to a village.)

P.S. I do not see cottages as being ahistorical, ignoring the name.
There were smaller communities going back into prehistory.
Smaller communities out numbered larger communities.
Call them settlements, cottages, hamlets, villages, smaller communities, whatever.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Prime Timber won't be too rare but you can't harvest it until you have Lumbermills (unlocked at Machinery). Until then it's basically just a forest tile with 1 extra production.

You sure about that? I miss my cedars of Lebanon...

 

[Nightstar]

Another slight Colosseum issue: I am Hittite in a world with otherwise only French, Aztec and Spanish civs, who are centuries behind me in technology.

My Colosseum city builds a Cavalry but a Grenadier pops out!

Similar problem in my current 1.17 game:

Playing as the Greeks, with only the Indians in my trade network (at war with Arabs and Celts, contact but no access to Japanese, two civs unmet). Tried to build a Hoplite in my Colosseum city, but got a Settler (with Cover and Formation) instead!

 

[Howard Mahler]

When built, the wonder shows all capitals.
It shows the location, even of capitals of nations you have yet to contact.
Also get to view the capital as per a high espionage level.

Even if this is a good idea, not sure if it can be implemented.

I would think it might go well with Astronomy.
Nasca Lines could take this power, and its current power, get one free great person which is kind of generic, could be put with some new wonder.

 

[Xyth]

You sure about that? I miss my cedars of Lebanon...

Yeah, it just works better gameplay-wise. The Prime Timber resource doesn't require a tech to be made visible though, so you can still have cedars of Lebanon equivalents with better yield than regular forest tiles. You just don't get the full benefit until the Medieval era when you're capable of milling and replanting on a larger, sustainable scale. After all, the resource doesn't ever vanish once worked.

Incidentally, I've made it possible to destroy a Prime Timber resource by chopping it's forest down. You get double the hammers for doing so.

Similar problem in my current 1.17 game:

Playing as the Greeks, with only the Indians in my trade network (at war with Arabs and Celts, contact but no access to Japanese, two civs unmet). Tried to build a Hoplite in my Colosseum city, but got a Settler (with Cover and Formation) instead!

Hmm. Receiving a Settler implies a value is set to 0 that shouldn't be, I'll have to work out why. Does this happen consistently or was it just a one off occurrence? Does it work as intended with different units or civilizations? Anyone else seeing anything like this happening?

The transfer of promotions is interesting, and a separate issue. I think I know what's causing it and shall try an alternative method to avoid it.

When built, the wonder shows all capitals.
It shows the location, even of capitals of nations you have yet to contact.
Also get to view the capital as per a high espionage level.

Even if this is a good idea, not sure if it can be implemented.

I would think it might go well with Astronomy.
Nasca Lines could take this power, and its current power, get one free great person which is kind of generic, could be put with some new wonder.

I should be able to code something like that. Added to my todo list.

 

[Nightstar]

Hmm. Receiving a Settler implies a value is set to 0 that shouldn't be, I'll have to work out why. Does this happen consistently or was it just a one off occurrence? Does it work as intended with different units or civilizations?

That's the only time it's happened in the two games where I got the Colosseum. It's also the only time I've tried to build my own civ's unique unit in the Colosseum city.