Feedback: Civilizations

[saddam_who_sane]

The most likely addition at this time is a northerly Central Asian civilization, such as the Khazar.

what about Oghur civ (Huns+Khazars+(Proto)Bulgars+Volga Bulgars)? for example, three leaders - one from Hunnic Empire, one from Khazaria, one from Volga Bulgaria (and may be one of early First Bulgarian Empire rulers)

 

[ales_]

60 civs would be the absolute maximum though.

May I ask why?

 

[Xyth]

what about Oghur civ (Huns+Khazars+(Proto)Bulgars+Volga Bulgars)? for example, three leaders - one from Hunnic Empire, one from Khazaria, one from Volga Bulgaria (and may be one of early First Bulgarian Empire rulers)

Isn't 'oghur' just the Turkic term for tribal/military divisions, similar to Mongol 'orda'? I'm definitely keen on having a more broadly defined civ here, if we can find an appropriate definition. Turkic history is pretty convoluted, I need to read up on it more.

May I ask why?

Memory limits. Leader art is loaded on demand, but most other art is stored in memory throughout play - even art belonging to civs that aren't in the current game.

 

[Leoreth]

I think they meant Oghuz Turks.

 

[saddam_who_sane]

I think they meant Oghuz Turks.

Oghuz civ is already exist in the list. It's called Turkish civ, Seljuqs and Ottomans are Oghuz descendants.
I talked about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages
I guess, having one language indicates cultural integrity

 

[AbsintheRed]

Europe and the Middle East are pretty well represented in HR, so more civs there are not a high priority. I might make an exception for Urartu/Armenia though, since they have such a long unbroken history. The most likely addition at this time is a northerly Central Asian civilization, such as the Khazar.

Great!
With the future inclusion of Armenia and the Khazars (or rather a NE turkic civ representing them and some other turks), your civ list is getting as perfect as possible IMO

 

[AbsintheRed]

Do you have any definite candidate for future leaders?
There are not that many places left with the current 169 leaders (counting the 3 new in 1.24 beta)
I vaguely remember some mentions about a new Persian, Chinese, Japanese and Indian leader

If I may speak home, I would love to see an early hungarian leader, Álmos or Árpád to represent the early migrating magyars, the conquest of the Carpathian-basin, and all the hungatian raids and horse archer invasions in all of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe

While I know there are already lots of European leaders, and agree that most remaining slots should be filled from other parts of the world, I think an early hungarian leader fits very well with the design philosophy of civs/leaders in HR.
Would represent a such different aspect of Hungary than the established kingdom of the middle-ages, both society and religion-wise.

 

[Xyth]

Do you have any definite candidate for future leaders?
There are not that many places left with the current 169 leaders (counting the 3 new in 1.24 beta)
I vaguely remember some mentions about a new Persian, Chinese, Japanese and Indian leader

There's 168 leaders in game (counting the 3 beta ones), and 22 slots free. Nothing definite at this stage but the most probable additions are for Russia (Nevsky or an Ivan), Persia (Mahmud), India, Siam (Naresuan), China, and Japan. Assuming I can find suitable art. It would be good to add a 3rd leader to a few civs that only have 2, but I want to have a better idea of any new civs that I might add first, since each needs to have a minimum of 2 leaders.

If I may speak home, I would love to see an early hungarian leader, Álmos or Árpád to represent the early migrating magyars, the conquest of the Carpathian-basin, and all the hungatian raids and horse archer invasions in all of Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe

While I know there are already lots of European leaders, and agree that most remaining slots should be filled from other parts of the world, I think an early hungarian leader fits very well with the design philosophy of civs/leaders in HR.
Would represent a such different aspect of Hungary than the established kingdom of the middle-ages, both society and religion-wise.

I was originally intending to add Árpád when Capo finished his leaderhead, but since that didn't happen I went with István I instead. Having that part of Magyar history represented would be good and fit well with HR, but I'd want to do a thorough review of my civ/leader wishlist before considering it.

 

[AbsintheRed]

There's 168 leaders in game (counting the 3 beta ones), and 22 slots free. Nothing definite at this stage but the most probable additions are for Russia (Nevsky or an Ivan), Persia (Mahmud), India, Siam (Naresuan), China, and Japan. Assuming I can find suitable art. It would be good to add a 3rd leader to a few civs that only have 2, but I want to have a better idea of any new civs that I might add first, since each needs to have a minimum of 2 leaders.

I was originally intending to add Árpád when Capo finished his leaderhead, but since that didn't happen I went with István I instead. Having that part of Magyar history represented would be good and fit well with HR, but I'd want to do a thorough review of my civ/leader wishlist before considering it.

Perfectly understandable.
I was also looking forward to Capo's new Arpad, the WIP versions already looked very good and authentic enough.
Istvan is also a must have though.

 

[Xyth]

Perfectly understandable.
I was also looking forward to Capo's new Arpad, the WIP versions already looked very good and authentic enough.
Istvan is also a must have though.

If it turned out that there wasn't a room for a 4th Hungarian leader, which 3 would you pick?

 

[AbsintheRed]

It's a hard choice, really.
History-wise, István and Mátyás are both in the top hungarian rulers/leaders ever. Also they are probably the two most well-known ones.
Although it would be great to have a later leader, I have to say Kossuth has to go, at least from this perspective.

On the other hand, art-wise Kossuth is one of the best leaderheads out there IMO. Ekmek did a wonderful job.
So while I would never want to miss that LH, I also can't imagine a hungarian civ without István and Mátyás...
Also, if we are thinking about removing the late leader, does an early leader instead really would be justified? In my mind slightly yes, but only by a tiny bit.
Both the pre 1000 era, and the post Ottoman era are significantly different from everything else in almost every aspect.

Did I say hard choice? It's an impossible choice
Obviously I'm more than biased, but in my head 4 leaders are the absolute minimum.
Early leader, István, Mátyás, late leader.
Then again, I perfectly understand your reasons and plans about civs/leaders, and the design that HR won't go beyond 190 leaders since you want to have unique trait-combos for every leader.

 

[ales_]

Then again, I perfectly understand your reasons and plans about civs/leaders, and the design that HR won't go beyond 190 leaders since you want to have unique trait-combos for every leader.

Those who have stuck to this mod for some time know, how much this number has changed over the mod development history.
Anymay, although I'm in no way a specialist on Hungarian history, in my opinion, in such situations, the more modern leader has to go (unless the others are too close to each other historically).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Those who have stuck to this mod for some time know, how much this number has changed over the mod development history.
Anymay, although I'm in no way a specialist on Hungarian history, in my opinion, in such situations, the more modern leader has to go (unless the others are too close to each other historically).

True, I agree generally. However in this case it's not that straightforward.
István and Mátyás are not close at all, early 11th and late 15th century.
On the other hand hungarian history is somewhat unique in Europe both before and after the medieval kingdom.
Already said quite a few reasons for the pre 11th century representation, and one could also make a very strong case for a later leader too.
Struggle for freedom under the Ottomans, Habsburgs, later the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, etc. Can't really imagine the last 550 years without any representation at all, especially since it fits the concept of HR so well.
Let just hope that they will remain some more room for adding that 4th leader.

 

[Xyth]

Those who have stuck to this mod for some time know, how much this number has changed over the mod development history.

Just once, when I added the Martial and Political traits, which in turn meant I could raise the cap on leaders per civilization from 4 to 5. I fairly certain 190 will be the final limit; I've no desire to add any further traits and MAFs dictate there can't be too many more civs added. We'll just have to make the most of these last 22 leader slots.

 

[Xyth]

Needed a break from technical stuff so I've been doing some research on potential civilizations. Started trying to make sense of Turkic Central Asia but got distracted and revisited Africa instead. I've long felt there should be a second civilization in West Africa and I've decided it should be Nigeria. The civilization would cover the modern nation-state (the most populous in Africa), but mostly represent historical states of its major peoples: the Yoruba (Ife, Oyo), the Edo (Benin), the Igbo (Nri), and the Hausa (various kingdoms). Some of these states date back to the 10th century.

For leaders I'd want to have Oduduwa of Ife, Ewuare of Benin, and Amina of the Hausa. All premised on whether I can find or make good art, of course. Maybe Obasanjo too, to represent the modern country. There's a good quality leaderhead of him, but he's still alive which would be a bit unusual for HR. Haven't given any thought to UU/UB/UW or anything else yet, but consider Nigeria officially coming to HR eventually (probably not in 1.24 though).

 

[ales_]

Good choice, I guess, although I'm not sure these people are related to each other enough.

 

[Xyth]

Good choice, I guess, although I'm not sure these people are related to each other enough.

From what I understand, the Yoruba, the Edo, and the Igbo are distantly related and have influenced each other culturally and politically prior to British colonization. They all speak languages from the same branch of the Volta-Niger language family. The Hausa are quite different though, descendants of the Nok culture with connections to the Fulani and other more northerly peoples. They speak a Chadic language. But I couldn't have a civilization called 'Nigeria' and not include them.

 

[ales_]

OK. Is Nigeria an appropriate name though?

 

[Xyth]

OK. Is Nigeria an appropriate name though?

For a conglomerate civilization like this, yes. There are no appropriate supra-ethnolinguistic terms that I'm aware of. All these peoples built their states by or near the Niger River delta, so it's just as much the name of the region as it is of the colonial or independent country.

 

[jeorgun]

I don’t know how you feel about people proposing new civilizations out of the blue, but I’d really like to plug for a Pacific Northwest civ. I think the Tlingit are one of the better candidates, since:

• They fill a major geographical and cultural gap.
• They have cultural and ethnic continuity stretching back thousands of years.
• Their culture and history, as far as I can tell, are pretty well-preserved compared to a lot of native peoples'.
• They had permanent settlements (each kwáan/tribe had multiple villages), so city lists wouldn’t have to be too much of a stretch.

Their UB could be the Totem Pole (since they actually built the things), and their UW the Potlatch as a replacement for the National Festival. Not sure about leaders or UUs, but I could look into them if you'd be interested. If not, no worries— I know there are a limited number of slots left, and I'm really looking forward to Nigeria.