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Feedback: Maps and Terrain

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Maybe Utrecht?
    OK.
    I think you know Polynesian history better than me, so I completely agree with you. Kailua-Kona was a small village, but I think you can use it as Kamehameha’s capital.
    Gustav – Stockholm
    Bilqis – Marib
    Basil II - Constantinople
    Waiting for your answer and for a definitive list of capitals to begin working on the starting locations.
     
  2. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Celts
    • Gergovia - Vercingetorix
    • Camulodunon - Boudica
    • Tara - Brian Boru
    • Dunfermline - Robert the Bruce

    England
    • Westminster - Richard
    • London - Elizabeth, Victoria, Churchill

    France
    • Paris - Clovis, Louis, Napoleon, De Gaulle

    Netherlands
    • Utrecht - Willem van Oranje
    • Gravenhage - Michiel de Ruyter

    Germany
    • Aachen - Karolas
    • Vienna - Maximilian
    • Berlin - Frederick, Bismarck

    Scandinavia
    • Roskilde - Ragnar
    • Nidaros - Knut
    • Stockholm - Gustav Adolph

    Poland
    • Krakow - Casimir
    • Warsaw - Sobieski

    Russia
    • Kiev - Yaroslav
    • Sankt-Peterburg - Peter, Yekaterina
    • Moskva - Stalin

    Hungary
    • Esztergom - Arpad
    • Buda - Corvin Mátyás, Kossuth

    Greece
    • Mykenai - Agamemon
    • Sparta - Leonidas
    • Athenai - Perikles
    • Pella - Alexander

    Rome
    • Rome - Scipio, Julius, Augustus, Marcus

    Byzantium
    • Constantinople - Constantine, Justinian, Basil

    Phoenicia
    • Tyre - Hiram
    • Carthage - Dido, Hannibal

    Spain
    • Tartesso - Argantonio
    • Valencia - El Cid
    • Toledo - Isabella
    • Madrid - Filipe

    Portugal
    • Olisipo - Viriato
    • Lisbon - Henrique, Joao

    Egypt
    • Mennefer - Djoser
    • Waset - Hatshepsut
    • Pi-Ramesses - Ramesses

    Nubia
    • Napata - Piye
    • Merowe - Amanirena

    Ethiopia
    • Aksum - Ezana
    • Roha - Lalibela
    • Addis Ababa - Selassie

    Berber
    • Abalessa - Tin Hinan
    • Marrakesh - Yaqb al-Mansur

    Mali
    • Niani - Sundjata, Musa
    • Gao - Askiya

    Kongo
    • Mbanza Kongo - Mbemba
    • Kabasa - Nzinga

    Swahili
    • Mombasa - Shehe Mvita
    • Kilwa - Abu'l Mawahib

    Zulu
    • Bulawayo - Shaka
    • Ulundi - Cetshwayo

    Sumer
    • Uruk - Gilgamesh
    • Akkad - Sargon

    Amurru
    • Babylon - Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar

    Assyria
    • Assur - Tiglathpileser, Shammuramat
    • Nineveh - Ashurbanipal

    Hatti
    • Hattusa - Hattusili, Suppiluliuma

    Israel
    • Timnath-heres - Joshua
    • Jerusalem - Solomon, Herod

    Arabia
    • Marib - Bilqis
    • Medina - Abu Bakr
    • Baghdad - Harun al-Rashid
    • Cairo - Saladin, Nasser

    Persia
    • Pasargad - Cyrus
    • Parsa - Darius
    • Ktesiphon - Khosrau
    • Ghazvin¹ - Abbas

    Kushan
    • Bagram - Kadphises
    • Purushapura - Kanishka

    Turks
    • Isfahan - Alp Arslan
    • Istanbul² - Mehmed, Suleiman
    • Ankara - Ataturk

    Mongolia
    • Aurag - Genghis
    • Daidu - Kublai
    • Samarkand - Timur

    Tibet
    • Lhasa - Songtsen, Lobsang

    India
    • Pataliputra - Asoka, Chandragupta
    • Agra - Akbar
    • Delhi - Gandhi

    Dravidia
    • Cholapuram - Rajendra
    • Tiruchirappalli - Mangammal

    Siam
    • Sukhothai - Ramkhamhaeng
    • Bangkok - Mongkut

    Angkor
    • Angkor³ - Suryavarman, Jayavarman

    Vietnam
    • Me Linh - Trung Sisters
    • Dong Kinh - Le Loi
    • Ha Noi - Ho Chi Minh

    Indonesia
    • Palembang - Dharmasetu
    • Majapahit - Gajah Mada⁴

    China
    • Xianyang - Qin Shi Huang
    • Chang'an - Taizong, Wu
    • Beijing - Mao

    Korea
    • Gaeseong - Wang Kon
    • Hanseong - Sejong

    Japan
    • Sakurai - Jingu
    • Edo - Tokugawa
    • Tokyo - Meiji

    Polynesia
    • Upolu - Salamasina
    • Hawai'i⁵ - Kamehameha
    • Kapiti - Te Rauparaha

    America
    • Philadelphia - Washington
    • Washington - Lincoln, Roosevelt

    Iroquois
    • Onondaga - Hiawatha, Logan

    Sioux
    • Hunkpapa - Sitting Bull
    • Oglala - Crazy Horse

    Anasazi
    • Chaco - Kochininako, Po'pay

    Aztec
    • Teotihuacan - Topiltzin
    • Tenochtitlan - Montezuma

    Maya
    • B'aak⁶ - Pacal
    • Pa' Chan⁶ - Xoc

    Inca
    • Cuzco - Pachacuti, Huayna Capac

    Brazil
    • Iperoig - Cunhambebe
    • Rio de Janeiro - Dom Pedro


    ¹ Switched Abbas to Ghazvin as 2 leaders from different civilizations with Isfahan as capital will cause problems.

    ² Decided to use 'Istanbul' instead of 'Kostantiniyye' here. From what I read, the latter was initially the official name, but the former was the common name. I prefer the historical distinction of the former.

    ³ Changed my mind here, I'd prefer to leave both leaders with Angkor as capital until I've researched and rebuilt their citylist.

    ⁴ Probable leader swap in 1.21

    ⁵ The island, not the state or entire island chain of course. The more I thought about it the more I didn't like using village names. Although we could give each leader completely separate citylists, ultimately it's a Polynesian civ - I don't want to see Kamehameha colonizing the pacific with Hawai'ian villages. So after founding Hawai'i, Oahu, Maui, etc, he would go on to found Tahiti, Rarotonga, Rapanui, and so forth.

    ⁶ Mayan names for Palenque and Yaxchilan, more appropriate to the era. Mayan cities seem to have several possible names, not always clear which is the best choice, or whether a name is for the city itself or the state itself. Intend to research more some time.
     
  3. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Thank you. I will start working on the locations now. I think EVERY leader should start in the location of his capital, even if it's bad, closed to another civ, or shared with another civ. The human player can found his capital on the first turn, and the AI can move his settler and settle his capital later. It can happen on random maps with much more civs than supported by the size.
    I will start with the Earth (Huge) map.
    I will post new starting locations as X N/S Y W/E of current location. For example: Vercingetorix: 1S, 5W. Will this be comfortable for you?
     
  4. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Be sure to look at Jarlaxe Baenre's suggestions and comments for this map when you do (post 148 in this thread).

    That's fine. Feel free to offer suggestions for minor terrain or resource tweaks at each location too, should they be needed. Places like Abalessa or Lhasa will most likely need some attention on most maps. I don't mind some starts being tougher than others, but impossible starts are no fun for anyone.
     
  5. Boggy

    Boggy Chieftain

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    Well, here it is. Starting coordinates for every leader on the large earth map. Have no time to check every position at the moment, mistakes, accidental or because I suck at Geography, are quite possible. I was especially unsure about Southeast Asia, looks unusual on the map, I think... Suggestions are, naturally, welcome. There are also some comments, if you agree with the resource adjustments, I will update the map and upload it here.
    Some civs start on strategical or luxury resources, but none on food resources.

     
  6. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    I'm working on my list of the starting locations on the huge map. I hope to finish it on Wednesday. Just some comments:
    1) I think resources should be moved, not capital locations. Resources haven't got specific locations, capital have.
    2) I'm using RFC's City Name Manager to decide where to place the capital.
    3) Yes, Abalessa is a funny location.
     
  7. Boggy

    Boggy Chieftain

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    Well, I don't think cities on resources are too bad if it is not clearly a waste. Mainly tiles like desert hill iron and so, I believe... Would need to check that. But I have never moved a capital to a less fitting position because it would start on a resources otherwise, I think.
     
  8. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    A few points.

    I think Bilqis should be a leader of Ethiopia, not Arabia. She may have ruled from modern-day Yemen, but that region has historically been part of the Ethiopian empire. There are many legends of her dynasty in Ethiopian folklore and the Ethiopian imperial family trace their decent back to her. The Roman historian Flavius Josephus even refers to her as the queen of Egypt and Ethiopia. The Quran, by contrast, regards her as the Other: a pagan queen who seeks the wisdom and piety of Suleiman (Solomon). I say Makeda of Ethiopia is a better fit than Bilqis of Arabia. (Not to mention that Arabia already has four leaders, the current maximum, while Ethiopia has three.)

    Also, Ezana doesn't appear to have a favourite religion. It should be Christianity.
     
  9. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Thanks for the coordinates and map suggestions so far. I've got the code working and all the capitals adjusted; when I'm done with the Great People and building changes I'll get these maps set up.

    Move resources when appropriate, but it's not a disaster if some capitals end up atop a resource.

    She's being added to represent both pre-Islamic Arabia and Southern Arabia (with the new traits coming in 1.21 the leader cap is being raised to 5). My original plan was to make Yemen a civilization all by itself but I just couldn't get enough concepts (e.g. UUs) together to make it work.

    The problem with accounts of Bilqis/Makeda is they quite contradictory and often don't match the archaeological record. Sheba is without doubt the ancient Yemeni state of Saba, but this was definitely an Arabian civilization, not Ethiopian. Ethiopia did control Yemen (and vice-versa) at various points in its history but there's no evidence that it did in the era when Bilqis most likely reigned. A lot of scholars believe that Bilqis and Makeda were different historical figures that were both retroactively associated with the Queen of Sheba, and thus the confusion. Other civilizations such as the Yoruba of Nigeria also claim the Queen of Sheba was one of their historical personages.

    I'd avoid this whole issue by choosing a less controversial leader except that the art I have in mind is female (and definitely not African). I haven't added her yet, but I will do some more research and thinking before I do.

    Ethiopia will get a 4th leader at some point, probably Menelik.

    Ah yes, he's meant to have Christianity.
     
  10. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    If that's the only issue, a cursory glance at the wikipedia page for Yemen's history suggests several things.
    UB:
    Dam, replaces aqueduct. Better name needed.
    Provides X :food: to represent how their irrigation system greatly enhanced their agriculture. Or, alternatively, some sort of harbour/customs house replacement.

    UU1:
    Some sort of worker, replacing workers. 1:strength: and starts with mobility. You're right, it's difficult to think of UUs. This is sort of representing the same as the above, as well as their trade. Workers which can walk onto a hill or into a forest and start on a road on the same turn can connect cities together more quickly, and the strength would just be to make them meaningfully useful. It would provide a large defence bonus to cities, as they would need to be killed one at a time.

    UU2:
    Zaidiyyah, replacing Infantry. Same 20:strength: but starts with Guerilla I and II. Representing the Zaydi tribes which resisted Ottoman rule in the late 1800s until North Yemen gained full independence under Imam Yahya.

    Leaders:
    Arwa al-Sulayhi, a possible candidate for that leaderhead.
    Imam Yahya. I couldn't find any leaderheads that looked like him, though. This was closest.
     
  11. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Unfortunately, I haven't finished the list yet. I plan to finish it tomorrow.
     
  12. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Here's the list. I have suggested one minor map change.

    Celts
    • Gergovia – Vercingetorix - 1S5W
    • Camulodunon – Boudica – 6N6W
    • Tara - Brian Boru – 8N11W
    • Dunfermline - Robert the Bruce – 9N8W

    England
    • Westminster – Richard – No changes
    • London - Elizabeth, Victoria, Churchill – No changes

    France
    • Paris - Clovis, Louis, Napoleon, De Gaulle – 1N1E

    Netherlands
    • Utrecht - Willem van Oranje – 1S
    • Gravenhage - Michiel de Ruyter – 1S1W

    Germany
    • Aachen – Karolas – 1S4W
    • Vienna – Maximilian – 3S2E
    • Berlin - Frederick, Bismarck – 1E

    Scandinavia
    • Roskilde – Ragnar – 4S2W
    • Nidaros – Knut – 3N1W
    • Stockholm - Gustav Adolph – 1E

    Poland
    • Krakow – Casimir – 1S
    • Warsaw – Sobieski – No changes

    Russia
    • Kiev – Yaroslav – 2S2W
    • Sankt-Peterburg - Peter, Yekaterina – 3N3W
    • Moskva – Stalin – 2E

    Hungary
    • Esztergom – Arpad – 1W
    • Buda - Corvin Mátyás, Kossuth – 1W

    Greece
    • Mykenai – Agamemon – 2S1E
    • Sparta – Leonidas – 2S
    • Athenai – Perikles – 1S2E
    • Pella – Alexander – 2N1E

    Rome
    • Rome - Scipio, Julius, Augustus, Marcus – No changes

    Byzantium
    • Constantinople - Constantine, Justinian, Basil – No changes

    Phoenicia
    • Tyre – Hiram – No changes
    • Carthage - Dido, Hannibal – 1S15W

    Spain
    • Tartesso – Argantonio – 3S4W
    • Valencia - El Cid – 1S
    • Toledo – Isabella – 3W
    • Madrid – Filipe – 2W

    Portugal
    • Olisipo – Viriato – 2S
    • Lisbon - Henrique, Joao – 2S

    Egypt
    • Mennefer – Djoser – 1S1W
    • Waset – Hatshepsut – 3S1W
    • Pi-Ramesses – Ramesses – No changes

    Nubia
    • Napata – Piye – 1E
    • Merowe – Amanirena – 1E

    Ethiopia
    • Aksum – Ezana – 4N1W
    • Roha – Lalibela – 2N
    • Addis Ababa – Selassie – 1N

    Berber
    • Abalessa - Tin Hinan – 5S3E
    • Marrakesh - Yaqb al-Mansur – 3S3W

    Mali
    • Niani - Sundjata, Musa – 2W
    • Gao – Askiya – 1N

    Kongo
    • Mbanza Kongo – Mbemba – 1S2W
    • Kabasa – Nzinga – 2S2W

    Swahili
    • Mombasa - Shehe Mvita – 1N
    • Kilwa - Abu'l Mawahib – 1S

    Zulu
    • Bulawayo – Shaka – 3N2W
    • Ulundi – Cetshwayo – 1S1W

    Sumer
    • Uruk – Gilgamesh – 1W
    • Akkad – Sargon – 2N3W

    Amurru
    • Babylon - Hammurabi, Nebuchadnezzar – 1E

    Assyria
    • Assur - Tiglathpileser, Shammuramat – No changes
    • Nineveh – Ashurbanipal – 1N

    Hatti
    • Hattusa - Hattusili, Suppiluliuma – 1N1W

    Israel
    • Timnath-heres – Joshua – 1N
    • Jerusalem - Solomon, Herod – 1N

    Arabia
    • Marib – Bilqis – 2S1E
    • Medina - Abu Bakr – 4N
    • Baghdad - Harun al-Rashid – 8N1E
    • Cairo - Saladin, Nasser – 3N6W

    Persia
    • Pasargad – Cyrus – 1N1E
    • Parsa – Darius – No changes
    • Ktesiphon – Khosrau – 1N6W
    • Ghazvin – Abbas – 5N4W

    Kushan
    • Bagram – Kadphises – 1S1E
    • Purushapura – Kanishka – 1S4E

    Turks
    • Isfahan - Alp Arslan – 12S2W
    • Istanbul - Mehmed, Suleiman – 8S15W
    • Ankara – Ataturk – 9S12W

    Mongolia
    • Aurag – Genghis – 2S2E
    • Daidu – Kublai – 5S2E
    • Samarkand – Timur – 5S15W

    Tibet
    • Lhasa - Songtsen, Lobsang – No changes

    India
    • Pataliputra - Asoka, Chandragupta – 3E
    • Agra – Akbar – 1S2W
    • Delhi – Gandhi – 1N

    Dravidia
    • Cholapuram – Rajendra – 1S1W
    • Tiruchirappalli – Mangammal – 1N

    Siam
    • Sukhothai – Ramkhamhaeng – 2S
    • Bangkok – Mongkut – 3S1E. Remove the wetlands here.

    Angkor
    • Angkor - Suryavarman, Jayavarman – No changes

    Vietnam
    • Me Linh - Trung Sisters – 2S2W
    • Dong Kinh - Le Loi – 2S2W
    • Ha Noi - Ho Chi Minh – 2S2W

    Indonesia
    • Palembang – Dharmasetu – No changes
    • Majapahit - Gajah Mada – 2S6E

    China
    • Xianyang - Qin Shi Huang – 1S4W
    • Chang'an - Taizong, Wu – 1S4W
    • Beijing – Mao – 3N2W

    Korea
    • Gaeseong - Wang Kon – 1N1W
    • Hanseong – Sejong – No changes

    Japan
    • Sakurai – Jingu – 2S2W
    • Edo – Tokugawa – No changes
    • Tokyo – Meiji – No changes

    Polynesia
    • Upolu – Salamasina – 15N2W
    • Hawai'i – Kamehameha – 29N2E
    • Kapiti - Te Rauparaha – 1S1W

    America
    • Philadelphia – Washington – 1N1E
    • Washington - Lincoln, Roosevelt – No changes

    Iroquois
    • Onondaga - Hiawatha, Logan – 5S1W

    Sioux
    • Hunkpapa - Sitting Bull – 2N3W
    • Oglala - Crazy Horse – 2N3W

    Anasazi
    • Chaco - Kochininako, Po'pay – No changes

    Aztec
    • Teotihuacan – Topiltzin – 1E
    • Tenochtitlan – Montezuma – 1E

    Maya
    • B'aak – Pacal – 1W
    • Pa' Chan – Xoc – 1S1W

    Inca
    • Cuzco - Pachacuti, Huayna Capac – No changes

    Brazil
    • Iperoig – Cunhambebe – 1S2W
    • Rio de Janeiro - Dom Pedro – No changes
     
  13. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Now I want to take a brake (and work on something else). But after this, I'll continue working on the maps. Have anybody got any requests? Currenty I'm thinking of Earth (Standard), but if somebody has a request, I'll work on another map.
     
  14. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    I think the Standard Earth map has a *lot* of problems. I'd be tempted to just throw it out entirely and see if we can find a better one to use as a base template.
     
  15. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Awesome, thank you.

    Maybe the Europe maps, they seem pretty popular. Celts and Russians are two of the civs that benefit the most from this functionality.

    Fine by me. Let me know if you find a better one and I'll get it set up.
     
  16. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    I'll start working on the biggest Europe map.
     
  17. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Just wanted to say that I'll begin working on the maps later. I'll take a brake now.
     
  18. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    Apologies if I've missed the answer to this question somewhere else, but how do I add more than 18 civs to the bigger maps? I don't seem to be able to do this from the custom game screen. Additionally, is it possible to have more than 18 civs on the Earth huge map scenario?

    Love the updates btw, been a huge HRW fan for awhile now, you guys rock :band:
     
  19. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    If you're on a PC, you need a custom DLL.

    If you're on a Mac, you can't. At all. Ever. The end. :(
     
  20. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    Well, that just blows my kazoo. I hate messing with the dll files.
     

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