Feedback: Maps and Terrain

I just encountered an annoying bug in the Huge Earth map. If you choose specific opponents but don't fill all 18 slots (i.e. if any are set to "Closed"), it will automatically add one more civ than you specified. Which one seems to be based on where they are in the drop-down menu, with the first listed leader of the first non-included civ on the list added: If you didn't include the Celts, it will always add Vercingetorix. If you *did* include the Celts, then it will add Richard of England. If the Celts and English are already in, then it will add Clovis of France, then Willem van Orenje of the Dutch if you manually included Celts, English *and* French, etc. (The last two break the pattern a little, since the Dutch are above the French in the menu. I'm not sure why that is.)

I haven't tested any of the other included maps to see if this applies to more than the Huge Earth one yet.

 

Added to the todo list.

 

Confirmed.

 

Fixed this problem for 1.21. Ended up significantly rewriting most of the code before realizing I could have changed the definition of just one variable... All good though, the code is now more efficient and now that I'm familiar with it (it was a module written by someone else) it will easy to expand it in the future. For example, I'd like to allow different leaders to start in different locations.

 

I for one would certainly welcome that! It's rather disconcerting to see Carthage founded in Palestine, for example.

 

Actually, the phoenicians start out in Syria. It's Israel which starts in Palestine. (At least on the huge earth and large middle east maps)

However, there would be a problem with this.
Babylon, Akkad and Baghdad are all on one tile, or a couple on the larger area-specific maps. Leaders would start at all three of those places.

 

It won't be practical for some civs/leader on some maps due to lack of suitable terrain or close proximity. But where it makes a difference, i.e Carthage, we can specify it. I'd code it so it will only use leader coordinates when defined, and fallback to the civilization coordinates when not.

If you guys want to work on getting me some coordinates for each map, I'll work on getting the code for this into 1.21.

 

I'll edit this post with the huge earth leaders. I'm going by most significant location for the leaders, not necessarily birthplace.

America:
Lincoln: 23,46 Illinois.

Amurru:
Hammurabi: 78,40 I'd rather not put him on top of a resource.
Nebuchadnezzar: Same.
Kind of confused about this civ being where it is on the large middle east map, now that I think about it. Both leaders are Babylonian.

Anasazi:
Kochininako: No idea. Didn't even show up on a google search.
Po'pay: 18,44

Arabia:
Abu Bakr: 75,34 if you move the incense to an adjacent tile.
Harun al-Rashid: 75,41
Saladin: 70,35 Cairo
Nasser: 66,36 Alexandria, but 67,36 if you move the olives or just don't think it matters that they'd be there.

Assyria:
Tiglathpileser: 76,41 or wherever you think Assur would fall.
Ashurbanipal: 77,42 Nineveh

Berber:
Tin Hinan: She'd do awfully if she were moved to an accurate position.
Yaqub al-Mansur: Would be very interesting at 52,41 or 51,40 but less accurate. I suggest the latter of those two if you do change it.

Brazil:
Cunhambebe: 38,17
Dom Pedro: 39,17 or 38,17

Celtica:
Vercingetorix: 55,48
Boudica: 53, 55 unless you don't mind her being on wheat, in which case it would be 54,55
Brian Boru: 48,56 unless you don't mind giving access to the only good hammer tile in Ireland by giving him 49,56
Robert the Bruce: 53,59

China:
Qin Shi Huang: 103,43
Taizong: 103,43
Wu: Probably the same as the above two. Her birthplace was elsewhere, but not as important.
Mao: 105,41

France:
Clovis: 56,51
Louis: 55,50
Napoleon: I have no idea where to put him.
De Gaulle: I'd suggest not moving him.

Greece:
Agamemnon: 67,41
Leonidas: 65,40
Perikles: 67,41
Alexander: 65,44

Inca:
Pachacuti: 26,22 because 27,22 or 28,22 are bad spots.
Huayna Capac: 24,26

India:
Asoka: 93,39
Chandragupta: 93,39
Akbar: 91,39
Gandhi: 86,36

Japan:
Jingu: 114,44
Tokugawa: 114,44
Meiji: 113,45

Mali:
Sundjata: 52,29

Mongolia:
Timur: 85,45

Phoenicia:
Hiram: 73,39
Dido: 58,39
Hannibal: 58,39

Poland:
Casimir: 62,51
Sobieski: 62,51
Unless you think the current spot's accurate enough

Polynesia:
Can't be done accurately.

Russia:
Yaroslav: 73,57
Peter: 68,56
Catherine: 68,56
Stalin: 76,51

Sioux:
Sitting Bull: 20,49

Spain:
Argantonio: 50,41
El Cid: 54,44 unless you want his birthplace rather than Valencia, which would be 52,45 on the iron.
Isabella: Don't move her from the default.
Filipe: Don't move him, either. Too many resources in the historical spot, and too close to Portugal.

Sumeria:
Gilgamesh: 78,39
Sargon: 78,40

Tamilakum:
Rajendra: 91,31
Mangammal: 91,31

Turkestan:
Alp Arslan: 82,42
The rest: Don't move, too much conflict. However, their starting spot is horrible. They rarely reach size 5 in their capital.

 

The historical location of each leader's in-game capital would probably be better.

 

Best to go by location of their capital city. No point having Lincoln start in Illinois because he'll still found Washington first. If you're not sure what capital I've set to which civ/leader, you can search for them in History Rewritten/Assets/XML/Civlizations/CIV4CityInfos.xml. Feel free to suggest better choices for capitals too, been a while since I last reviewed them and I don't remember how complete said review was. Just note that these will apply to that leader for all maps and random games. I can't make leaders have different capitals on different maps.

 

I'll make a list of capitals and suggestions later.

 

I'll make the list for the large earth map, but unfortunately, I only have access to my old laptop at the moment. Working with it is a torture... I will start in two weeks, I guess, when I can use my PC at home (if I have enough time then).

 

I just stumbled across a problem with the *Standard* Earth Map, specifically with Polynesia's starting location. I'll let the picture speak for itself.

 

Heh, they better research seafaring fast! Also, that's a dreadful New Zealand, I should remake that. I've got leader defined starting positions working, will starting adding some suggestions once I've finished with all the Great People changes.

 

I think every leader should have a different starting location according to his capital. As I have said, I'm working on a new list of capitals. Then, you'll post your list of capitals and then we should begin to post suggestions on the capital locations on maps.

 

So here is my list of capitals. I haven't looked very much at your list, so I don't know how similar they are. Now I'm waiting until you'll post your list of capitals and then I'll begin to post suggestions on the starting locations on maps.
Vercingetorix - Gergovia
Boudica – Venta Icenorum
Brian Boru – Tara
Robert the Bruce – Dunfermline
Richard – Westminster
Elizabeth – Westminster
Victoria – London
Churchill – London
Clovis – Paris
Louis – Paris
Napolean – Paris
De Gaulle – Paris
Willem van Oranje – The Hague
Michiel de Ruyter – The Hague
Karolus – Aachen
Maximilian – Vienna
Frederick – Berlin
Bismarck – Berlin
Ragnar – Roskilde
Knut – Nidaros
Casimir – Krakow
Sobieski – Warsaw
Yaroslav – Kiev
Peter – St. Petersburg
Yekaterina – St. Petersburg
Stalin – Moscow
Attila – Acquincum
Corvin Mátyás – Buda
Kossuth – Buda
Agamemnon – Mycenae
Leonidas – Sparta
Pericles – Athens
Alexander – Pella
Scipio – Rome
Julius – Rome
Augustus – Rome
Marcus Aurelias – Rome
Constantine – Constantinople
Justinian – Constantinople
Hiram – Tyre
Dido – Carthage
Hannibal – Carthage
Argantonio – Tartessos
El Cid – Valencia
Isabella – Toledo
Filipe – Madrid
Viriato – Olisipo
Henrique – Lisbon
Joao – Lisbon
Djoser – Memphis
Hatshepsut – Thebes
Ramesses – Pi-Ramesses
Piye – Napata
Amanirena – Meroe
Ezana – Aksum
Lalibela – Lalibela
Haile Selassie – Addis Ababa
Tin Hinan – Abalessa
Yaqub al-Mansur – Marrakesh
Sundjata – Niani
Musa – Niani
Askiya – Gao
Mbemba – Mbanza-Kongo
Nzinga – Kabasa
Shehe Mvita – Mombasa
Abu'l Mawahib – Kilwa
Shaka – kwaBulawayo
Cetshwayo – Ulundi
Gilgamesh – Uruk
Sargon – Akkad
Hammurabi – Babylon
Nebuchadnezzar – Babylon
Tiglathpileser – Assur
Shammuramat – Assur
Ashurbanipal – Nineveh
Hattusili – Hattusa
Suppiliuluma – Hattusa
Joshua – Timnath-heres
Solomon – Jerusalem
Herod – Jerusalem
Abu Bakr – Medina
Harun al-Rashid – Ar-Raqqah
Saladin – Cairo
Nasser – Cairo
Cyrus – Pasargadae
Darius – Persepolis
Khosrau – Ctesiphon
Abbas – Isfahan
Kadphises – Bagram
Kanishka – Peshawar
Alp Arslan – Isfahan
Mehmed – Konstantiniyye
Suleiman – Konstantiniyye
Ataturk – Ankara
Genghis – Avarga
Kublai – Dadu
Timur – Samarkand
Songtsen Gampo – Lhasa
Lobsang Gyatso – Lhasa
Asoka – Pataliputra
Chandragupta – Pataliputra
Akbar – Agra
Gandhi – New Delhi
Rajendra – Thanjavur
Mangammal – Tiruchirapalli
Ramkhamhaeng – Sukhothai
Mongkut – Bangkok
Suryavarman – Angkor
Jayavarman – Yasodharapura
Trung Sisters – Me Linh
Le Loi – Dong Kinh
Ho Chi Minh – Hanoi
Dharmasetu – Palembang
Hayam Wuruk – Majapahit
Qin Shi Huang – Xianyang
Taizong – Chang’an
Wu – Chang’an
Mao – Beijing
Wang Kon – Gaegyeong
Sejong – Hanseong
Jingu – Misasagi-Cho
Tokugawa – Edo
Meiji – Tokyo
Salamasina – Mu’a
Kamehameha – Kailua-Kona
Te Rauparaha – Ngati Toa
Washington – Philadelphia
Lincoln – Washington D.C.
Roosevelt – Washington D.C.
Hiawatha – Onondaga
Logan – Onondaga
Sitting Bull – Hunkpapa
Crazy Horse – Oglala
Kochininako – Chaco
Po'pay – Chaco
Topiltzin – Tula
Montezuma – Tenochtitlan
Pacal – Palenque
Xoc – Yaxchilan
Pachacuti – Cusco
Huayna Capac – Cusco
Cunhambebe – Iperoig
Dom Pedro – Rio de Janeiro

 

Commenting only where your list differs from what's in 1.20.

I chose Camulodunon. Although it's the Catuvellauni capital, in HR Boudica represents all Britons, not just the Iceni, and thus I feel this is a better choice. I also prefer using a Celtic name rather than a Latin toponym.

Scottish capitals are confusing. I chose Stirling but it seems that Dunfermline or Scone are also appropriate. Happy to change it to any of these should we find more specific information.

Hmm, were Westminster and London still separate cities by this time?

Amsterdam in 1.20. Weird because The Hague is the seat of the Dutch government but Amsterdam is still designated the capital. I'd need to read more.

Reasonable choices.

Hmm, thought I'd designated St Petersburg for those two but looks like I didn't. Will do.

Attila is being removed in 1.21 so no need to worry about him. Will be replaced with Arpad, just waiting for some art to be finished.

When did Buda and Pest merge?

Wasn't aware of the ancient name of Lisbon. Will add.

I left him with Waset (Thebes) as Pi-Ramesses wasn't built till during his reign.

He has Roha, which is the original name for Lalibela.

Looks like I haven't specified the Berber capitals, just their cities. These are indeed the correct capitals for these two.

I've set Nzinga to have either Kabasa or Matamba as her capital.

Wasn't aware of that, will add.

Currently Mecca. Never sure which of these two is the more appropriate.

I stuck with Baghdad as he began his reign there and it better represents the Abbasid dynasty as a whole.

I gave him Kashgar, to represent the Kushan's origins in the Tarim basin, but he could probably have Bagram as an alternate option perhaps. (Though leaders having alternative capital options may be problematic in combination with the real world maps)

This is his capital but under its original name, Purushapura.

The ever confusing Turks. Looks like I haven't defined anything for them yet.

Haven't defined anything for the Mongols yet either. Wasn't aware of Aurag/Avarga, good find.

Oops, looks like I inadvertantly gave these two Purushapura instead of Pataliputra. Fixed.

I have him at Cholapuram.

At the moment I have them both at Angkor, but there's a lot of confusion with dating and even the definition of what defines a Khmer 'city'. I need to read more on it.

Ha Noi has so many historical names, I wasn't sure what to pick for Le Loi.

I opted to just give her Nara.

I've not assigned Polynesian capitals yet. Since they didn't have cities or many large settlements, my Polynesian citylist is constructed from island and regional names, which I think is the most appropriate method.

I don't know U.S. history all that well, is this suitable?

Good call.

Interesting.

I fall into the academic camp that reckons the Toltec never existed as a distinct people and are actually the result of the Aztec and related Nahuatl peoples mythologizing their own past (and Western misinterpretations of this). As a result, I prefer Teotihuacan as the capital for Topiltzin.

Yep. The Mayan citylist is one I've started but never got around to completing.

I opted for Rio de Janeiro here as Iperoig was never more than a small village and I wanted to emphasize Cunhambebe being a Brazilian leader and not just a Tupi leader. Not sure if that works or not.

 

I will answer later today.

 

OK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Scotland says Dunfermline was the capital during the reign of Robert.

So, I’d say Westminster for Richard, but London for Elizabeth.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic, there was no de jure capital. Amsterdam was “just” cultural/financial centre/largest city, while The Hague was the government seat.

If you will include Gustav Adolph as a new leader for Scandinavia, then the three Scandinavian leaders will not only represent three different eras, but also three different countries.

It was really difficult to find a capital for Attila.
Arpad – Esztergom

1873. So Buda makes perfect sense for both leaders.

It’s a roman name, but it’s the best I could find.

So, Wikipedia says it’s wrong.

Yes, the majority of the names are translated in English. After I will place the starting locations on the maps, I plan to translate all the untranslated leader, capital names, UUs, UBs and UWs in the correct languages.

Alternative capital options are bad for this reason. For Nzinga, please, choose one of them. For Kadphises, I’d use Bagram and add another leader to represent the Kushan's origins in the Tarim basin.

It’s not ideal, but Jerusalem wasn’t captured until the reign of David, and Israel wasn’t organized in this period, so it’s the best capital.

Mecca was never a capital, so, Medina.

I looked at the end of the reign for every leader, so, both Baghdad and Ar-Raqqah are fine.

They are confusing in some aspects, but they were one of the easiest civs for defining capitals.

I would post Cholapuram, if I was doing my research better, but you don’t want to have Pi-Ramesses, but agree with Cholapuram? If you have Cholapuram, you SHOULD have Pi-Ramesses because Pi-Ramesses was founded before the reign of Ramesses, but Cholapuram was founded by Rajendra.

The Wikipedia articles for both leaders mention the capitals as I have defined them.

Have you seen this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_capitals_of_Vietnam?

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_Japan, there wasn’t any capital during this period. Maybe you can use Sakurai, the first capital?

Why should we use island and regional names when we can use city names? You can use Samoa for Salamasina, but I’d like to keep Kailua-Kona for Kamehameha and Ngati-Toa (a tribe name, as you probably know) for Te Rauparaha.

When Washington was the president, the capitals were (in this order): New York City, Philadelphia. So, choose one of them.

BTW, Onondaga was changing its location. So, I think I’ll make the starting locations for Hiawatha and Logan different.

These are tribe names, but IMO it’s better than Little Bighorn.

Tula is a Mesoamerican archaeological site, so it’s not a myth. And, if I’m not mistaken, Teotihuacan declined before Topiltzin was supposed to exist.

It doesn’t work IMO. Rio de Janeiro didn’t exist when Cunhambebe lived, so I prefer Iperoig.
Waiting for your answer and for a definitive list of capitals to begin working on the starting locations.
BTW, do you plan to add new leaders in 1.21? Gustav Adolph? Bilqis? Anybody else? New civs?

 

Excellent, I'll change it.

Agreed.

From what I read on wikipedia The Hague became the government seat in 1588, which is after William of Orange at least. Sounds like neither The Hague or Amsterdam is appropriate for him. Will research further when I get a chance.

That's the plan.

Sorry!

Cheers.

Good to know, I'll separate them as cities then.

Hmm, so it was. Wonder if it had a different name prior his reign.

Yes, I'll get rid of any alternative capital options. Agree that Bagram is the better choice for Kadphises too.

Agreed.

Done.

When faced with two options I tend to go with the city that was more significant or long-lasting for the civilization or dynasty, rather than the leader. I don't always get this right of course

I don't have a strong opinion either way for Rajendra, and I underestimated the significance of Pi-Ramesses.

Yep. The problem is the definition of 'Angkor' itself. What we translate from Khmer as 'city' and 'capital' is quite different from Western definitions. For example, Angkor Thom is called both, yet it was actually a complex built within the city of Angkor itself, almost overtop of Hariharalaya and Yasodharapura - previous 'capitals' of the empire. To some degree, all these capitals are just new centres of the same city. Alternatively, we can take them to different cities and Angkor itself to be a region.

But that's all from a Western viewpoint; the Khmer (and other SE Asian civilizations) just didn't think of cities and territory like that, using mandala instead.

I have not, very useful. Dai Viet also used the mandala system though, so many of those capitals were physically part of Ha Noi. Happy to use your suggestions for the Khmer and Viet in the short term, but in the long term I want to do a lot more research.

Probably best.

Names of tribes (iwi) don't work for the Māori as iwi were often present in several geographically disparate areas at once (e.g Taranaki and the Chatham Islands), or were the only iwi in a massive region (e.g. Ngāi Tahu with almost the entire South Island). Region and island names work, as they more closely resemble the economic unit that cities are in Civ4. Māori identify themselves by their iwi, and the region their hapu hails from, and their marae (which are often not located in major settlements). Te Rauparaha could have either Kāwhia or Kāpiti as his capital, the latter probably most suitable.

In the Pacific islands the village traditionally carries more importance, but still on small scale. There's never been a Polynesian settlement close to approaching the definition of a city before colonial times, and while we could 'promote' villages as we might do for a few other civs, I still maintain island names are a better choice. 'Upolu would be Salamasina's capital.

I know considerably less about the history of Hawai'i than I do about the South Pacific.

Didn't know that. Philadelphia sounds good.

I borrowed the Iroquois and Sioux citylists from another mod, which I think I think obtained them direct from Civ3. I agree that they're pretty dubious.

That Tula isn't a myth, no, but the idea of it being the Toltec capital is. The site's actual name is Xicocotitlan and there's no firm evidence it was anything more than a regional centre or city state. The Aztec called many ancient cities 'Tollan/Tula', notably Teotihuacan and Cholula. The Tollan of Topiltzin's narrative (which is rather tangled with that of the deity Quetzalcoatl) was most probably one of those two major centres. The dating of Topiltzin's reign to the 10th century is tied to the existence of a Toltec people and empire, which is being increasingly discredited by academics.

Fair enough. I certainly don't have any strong attachments to the idea. Ipeiroig it is.

Yes, but how many and who will have to wait till after the 1.21 traits are determined, which is waiting in turn till after I complete the GPP changes. Assume Gustav, Bilqis, and Basil II for now as I've made a tentative start on those 3. Arpad if the art gets finished. No new civs coming in 1.21.