Feminism

Quackers

The Frog
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So why do we need it?
The equality of sexes is a value held across the Western world. It is enshrined in law. Women now have the choice to do whatever they wish. What else can we possibly do?
 
So why do we need it?
The equality of sexes is a value held across the Western world. It is enshrined in law. Women now have the choice to do whatever they wish. What else can we possibly do?

Share this enlightenment with less developed parts of the world.


Spoiler :
Or more likely create fantasies like "rape culture", and generally lose our poop for no good reason.
 
While for some people (i suspect most of them being male) it seems that the notion is that the two sexes are not "equal" (whatever that means in each context), i think that by and large most people in the european-zone and most closely related countries in other continents, do not really think in this way.

I mean (i hope) anyone knows that he is not really close to what in his view the next person of his own sex is, so it is kind of pointless to form a generalisation about equal status of the other sex.
The "feminist" movement does seem to be not needed by now, or even creating its own divisions. The usual human=human is an overall reply, i suppose, to an already false issue.
 
We still live in a very sexist society. For me this society "let" you be and do "whatever you want" but we are educated in a determinated way to be sexist.
 
So why do we need it?
The equality of sexes is a value held across the Western world. It is enshrined in law. Women now have the choice to do whatever they wish. What else can we possibly do?

Not the entire world is Western.
 
Well, equal pay for equal work would be a good start.

It's easy to forget that Unions and Communists have been at the vanguard of Feminism in that regard.

That said, there's still a lot of sexism in my union, and it's pretty insulting. We see it all the time when a new guy is on our crew - trying to take a load out of my female co-worker's hands. It implies that she's not willing or able to do the work. It's *usually* masked as a polite gesture, but that doesn't make it less insulting.

Just an example. There are others
 
Shock as men believe feminism is not needed
 
So why do we need it?

So that women who are not feminine enough (and are too broken in the head to improve that) could take their revenge and climb the social ladder higher.

And also men who are not masculine enough and too coward to deal with a real lady could still be happy with the social status of their infeminine darling.

And also, of course, so that those overly feminine, masculine and those who applaud masculinity and feminity could be condemned and badgered.
 
It's *usually* masked as a polite gesture, but that doesn't make it less insulting.

Dude, you sure that's a mask? Also, carrying loads is assuming the role of the laborer rather than the skilled worker. It's a sign of respect? At least I know it can be even if it isn't always. You better believe when my dad and I are working together and there's something to be carried and lugged while the work is going on it's been me doing that for decades. Not because my father can't carry and lug, but because whatever he's working on he's doing better than I could.

I get what you are saying, but I really don't think you can presume cleanly what you seem to be presuming. It's just as bad as thinking "gurls can't carry the stuffs."
 
Not the entire world is Western.

Well, obviously for many areas in the non-western world feminism is crucial.
I don't know why we still have it in the UK, for example. Maybe, we need it for the arrivals who treat their woman poorly - but for a native woman not born into a crazy religion? She has every opportunity a man does.

Well, equal pay for equal work would be a good start.

From what I've read on this, the pay gap in the US is a myth. It's roughly equal when you take into account breaks from career, hours worked a week, level of qualifications, the same jobs and so on. Just comparing the average wage of men and women is a really poor way of seeing if there is a gender wage gap.

It's easy to forget that Unions and Communists have been at the vanguard of Feminism in that regard.

That said, there's still a lot of sexism in my union, and it's pretty insulting. We see it all the time when a new guy is on our crew - trying to take a load out of my female co-worker's hands. It implies that she's not willing or able to do the work. It's *usually* masked as a polite gesture, but that doesn't make it less insulting.

Just an example. There are others

In the past the Labour party in the UK, had a system of having "female-only" shortlists for constituancies. So they would only vote for a female MP. That shows a similiar motivation to your example.

The largest far-left party in this country, the SWP, for decades used woman only as sex objects. The left like to make a big show and tell about how they believe in equality and such, but sometimes their actions contradict their speech.
 
So that women who are not feminine enough (and are too broken in the head to improve that) could take their revenge and climb the social ladder higher.

And also men who are not masculine enough and too coward to deal with a real lady could still be happy with the social status of their infeminine darling.

And also, of course, so that those overly feminine, masculine and those who apploud masculinity and feminity could be condemned and badgered.

I got to admit, there is a section of feminism which does try and tear down the traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity. The way that a stay-at-home mother is underhandedly shamed in this country. That's when feminism has overreached.
 
Feminism is necessary because instead of going looking for feminists opinions on why feminism is important, you just asked a bunch of dudes.

Actually it was just convenient. Have you ever been on a feminist forum? Unless you put down trigger warnings for everything you write and sugarcoat your posts you're banned.

At least here I've got more freedom. Additionally, there are plenty of male feminists here (i expect).
 
Well, obviously for many areas in the non-western world feminism is crucial.
I don't know why we still have it in the UK, for example. Maybe, we need it for the arrivals who treat their woman poorly - but for a native woman not born into a crazy religion? She has every opportunity a man does.

I somewhat agree. Whenever a scientific discovery notices physiological differences between sexes, whenever men and women are not living the same lifestyles, it pretty much gets flak from it by 'feminists' nowadays.

In some ways, feminism is a misnomer, since it describes a heterogenous group of sub-movements that all have in common their goal of women empowerment. Most self-describing feminists that have been the vogue in recent academic discourse are part of a radical fringe. They do not deserve to be labelled under a common banner with say, suffragettes.

You think stay-at-home fathers face less shaming?

Parents that stay at home, man or woman, should be more accepted and debated about. Most political discourse seems to revolve around putting kids of non-school age at pre-kindergartens, which may not be always the healthy environment for kids we would like to see.
 
Some thoughts...

From what I've read on this, the pay gap in the US is a myth.
I read the same thing about the German pay gap. When all things which overall tend to matter were accounted for, the pay gap was minimal. At least according to an article in the German news magazine Focus.
The supposed pay gap never should be accepted as presented in various media. Too strong and consistent is the history of either ignorance or neglect of statistical issues.

That said, I think there is still a place for feminism even in the Western world. To treat the female sex as something lesser hasn't vanished off this earth. As I posted in your other recent feminism-thread, the economic life definitely still knows sexism, even if the pay gap is a myth. Because instead of just being paid less for being female, women may simply not advance to the positions paid better. Which I think is still a big problem.
One factor I already noted in the other thread. Which is that the universal competition in the business-world makes sexism an attractive tool to at least stay ahead of the females. However, it is nut just males belittling females, it can also be more subtle and less conscious. What I mean here is the issue of a general "male culture". I read an article which claimed that successful business women simply had to learn to act like males. One example I remember was the gesture of putting your hand on another man's shoulder to symbolize dominance. That apparently is something females usually don't do. But gestures like that are also apparently part of asserting yourself among your colleagues.

I am very torn on quotas.
In themselves, they IMO clearly are wrong. It is the same basic problem I already decried about affirmative action. Injustice is supposed to be countered by statistical counter-injustice. Which is IMO clearly an ridiculous approach. You can not reestablish justice by a quota. That just means introducing further different injustice to have a prettier picture which seems more right. But since it is about actual justice and not aesthetics resembling ones idea of justice, the end doesn't justify the means. Because only if the means themselves actually mean actual more justice on the ground is the end also actually more just. But that can not be guaranteed in the slightest.
On the other hand, if as it is planned in Germany a quota lifts more women into management the male culture and sexism can perhaps be severely diminished by the mere presence of those women. Which could considerably speed up the process of female business emancipation.

So in a nutshell: Quotas are not just, but they can have desirable effects regardless, even long-term effects which benefit justice.

However, the whole thing seems to solve itself. It just needs time.

So the final question is: Do we want to be patient or do we want to speed things up by making use of a very problematic tool? I tend toward patience.

But quotas or no quotas, I am certain we continue to need females who raise awareness of sexism in the work place. Regarding sexism on the street, in our private lives or general sexist cultural images.. I don't think we need feminists for that one anymore. Sure women have to invest more time in their looks etcetera That can be viewed as a problem. But I think that is way better approached as the general problem of how societies pressure people to confirm with social expectation. I think that is more an issue of general openness and tolerance and less of male oppression. Of just being a sorta enlightened and decent human being. Not one who is more or less obsessed with finding ways to seem better / have others seem worse. And that is a whole different nut to crack than what we understand under sexism.
 
From what I've read on this, the pay gap in the US is a myth. It's roughly equal when you take into account breaks from career, hours worked a week, level of qualifications, the same jobs and so on.

The pay-gap for the same job with the same qualifications in the Swedish private sector is roughly 10% - that’s significant enough to react on as discrimination. The public sectors is much better at about 1-5%.

Sweden are rank #2 in the gender-equality index. The US is #42 together with Malaysia and Hungary. The UK is trailing Croatia on rank #34. Linky.


Just comparing the average wage of men and women is a really poor way of seeing if there is a gender wage gap.

Indeed. Women on average do more unpaid work at home and in the work-place. They work more part-time, temp-jobs and are expected to deal with it in a way men are not. You also have less woman representation in parliaments and on corporate boards. When they do represent there is expectations to work and act in a manly fashion. For example: God forbid a corporation could focus on more important values than the income statement – you know like sissies do. Oh and strong womanly women who dare do anyway can always be discredited as bi…es. Right bro. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. ;)
 
Indeed. Women on average do more unpaid work at home and in the work-place. They work more part-time, temp-jobs and are expected to deal with it in a way men are not. You also have less woman representation in parliaments and on corporate boards. When they do represent there is expectations to work and act in a manly fashion. For example: God forbid a corporation could focus on more important values than the income statement – you know like sissies do. Oh and strong womanly women who dare do anyway can always be discredited as bi…es. Right bro. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. ;)

Men and women tend to pick different lifestyles. That something else than discrimination.
 
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