Feminism

[Gori the Grey]

Enacting pro-life legislation infringes on the actions of pro-choice people, but the reverse situation does not.

But only if you don't think of fetuses as people-in-the-offing. But remember, anyone who has an abortion is doing so precisely because they think there's a person in the offing.

 

[Senethro]

It's not the punishment of consensual sex, but rather the recognition that it was a choice and people are usually held accountable for the consequences of their choices. Much less so when it's something forced upon them.

luiz is clearly pro-life (or arguing that point of view at any rate), but not insisting that it trumps everything.

It's quite logically consistent to weight up various factors and support different actions in different circumstances.

It is the punishment of consensual sex because the permission to consider the welfare of the woman ahead of the embryo shouldn't depend on whether the man was committing a crime.

It is sexist because it is putting two individuals concerns ahead of the woman's and logically screwy because one rape doesn't justify a further murder.

 

[Senethro]

It's obviously not a very good compromise if it means that some people can legally behave in a way that others find to be morally abhorrent and think shouldn't be allowed. Getting everything you want, while the other side gets no hint of what they want, isn't compromise at all.

This post could have been made in a thread about gay marriage. Getting what you want stops where it is meddling with other people and not your own self.

 

[Oruc]

Talking about me by name in a public place where I am present and even nearby is very nearly the same as addressing me directly. Perhaps you should have made your comment on a private channel of communication?

It isn't the same as directly addressing you, it's talking about you to someone else, you just chose to butt in, be rude and throw a tizzy. This has happened before and it will happen again and their is nothing you can do about it.
Do you have autism? Are you on the spectrum? Should I be taking into account some extra needs you have or require?

If you don't prevent me from acting as I wish and I don't prevent you from acting as you wish, thats a pretty good compromise. Enacting pro-life legislation infringes on the actions of pro-choice people, but the reverse situation does not.

With pro-choice legislation everyone gets to act as they want. A very good compromise.

It isn't a compromise and you are preventing them not just from acting as they wish but from having any influence on society.
And again it is not compromise if you get everything you wanted (and This is going from the fairytale society you present).

 

[Flying Pig]

I don't think the law is supposed to stop people from doing what anybody considers morally abhorrent; the law is supposed to, as far as this is possible, 'work towards the good of society'. It is not designed to enforce morality.

 

[Senethro]

But only if you don't think of fetuses as people-in-the-offing. But remember, anyone who has an abortion is doing so precisely because they think there's a person in the offing.

Blurring the issue with unclear language. It is immoral to kill a person, it is not immoral to halt a chemical process that will lead to the creation of a person.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It is the punishment of consensual sex because the permission to consider the welfare of the woman ahead of the embryo shouldn't depend on whether the man was committing a crime.

It's not about the man committing the crime, it's about the woman not choosing to have sex. You're looking at it from the wrong angle.

If she made a choice to engage in an activity knowing the risks it entailed, then she should be held accountable for the consequences of those actions. If she had no choice, then she shouldn't.

That's the argument. The argument isn't "bad man did a rape".

 

[Cutlass]

Only horrible people compromise.

It's the most horrible people who will not compromise. Like the slavers who started the Civil War.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I don't think the law is supposed to stop people from doing what anybody considers morally abhorrent; the law is supposed to, as far as this is possible, 'work towards the good of society'. It is not designed to enforce morality.

Reword what I said then to remove the word "morally". The point I was making is clear enough.

 

[Senethro]

It isn't the same as directly addressing you, it's talking about you to someone else, you just chose to butt in, be rude and throw a tizzy. This has happened before and it will happen again and their is nothing you can do about it.
Do you have autism? Are you on the spectrum? Should I be taking into account some extra needs you have or require?

If I was autistic I might have been slow to learn that talking about people who are present without addressing them is rude and socially inept!

 

[Farm Boy]

Please don't put words in my mouth. Compromise is pretty sweet and more compatible with the pro-choice position than the pro-life one.

Getting odder and odder the longer this exchange continues.

 

[Oruc]

It's the most horrible people who will not compromise. Like the slavers who started the Civil War.

Why do people seemingly not realise I was being facetious? That Crezth and senethro were the ones I was mocking as horrible people seemingly incapable of compromise.

 

[Senethro]

If she made a choice to engage in an activity knowing the risks it entailed, then she should be held accountable for the consequences of those actions. If she had no choice, then she shouldn't.

Does this read like the language of punishment to anyone else? It really seems as if you consider consensual sex a crime.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Blurring the issue with unclear language. It is immoral to kill a person, it is not immoral to halt a chemical process that will lead to the creation of a person.

biochemical?

and, is holding accountable the same thing as punishing, for you?

 

[Oruc]

If I was autistic I might have been slow to learn that talking about people who are present without addressing them is rude and socially inept!

I wasn't using it as an insult. I was trying to be accommodating, more inclusive. Online doesn't have the social rules real life does, we even have a rule on this forum that people are fair game if they are in the thread itself. But if they aren't in you can't mention them, bad form.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

..it is not immoral to halt a chemical process that will lead to the creation of a person.

..on a state level too? There's an overpopulation issue that could be handled in a moral way if that's true.

 

[Senethro]

biochemical?

and, is holding accountable the same thing as punishing, for you?

When you deprive them of autonomy for choosing to do a thing and don't deprive them when it happens involuntarily, yes. That is clearly a punishment.

..on a state level too? There's an overpopulation issue that could be handled in a moral way if that's true.

I don't know of any chemical processes that leads to the creation of states.

 

[Farm Boy]

biochemical?

and, is holding accountable the same thing as punishing, for you?

I see his point. When one doesn't think that the consequences of one's actions should be something one is responsible for, then being held accountable would indeed probably feel like punishment. My child probably feels punished when I insist upon him helping pick up his toys at the end of the day.

 

[Senethro]

I see his point. When one doesn't think that the consequences of one's actions should be something one is responsible for, then being held accountable would indeed probably feel like punishment. My child probably feels punished when I insist upon him helping pick up his toys at the end of the day.

This is a poor analogy. It would be closer if you forced your child to bring up another child for playing socially, and did nothing if they stayed at home.

You talk about sex having consequences and keep going on about responsibility but that stopped being true in the 1960s. Now the consequences are solely the ones you are able to enforce.

We're getting close now. You're very nearly ready to admit that its about punishment.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Does this read like the language of punishment to anyone else? It really seems as if you consider consensual sex a crime.

Well a) This isn't even my opinion, I'm about as pro-life as you can get, bordering on pro-death actually, I'm simply explaining the argument that is being made.

b) If it seems that way to you then you're obviously projecting your own prejudices rather than reading the words and what they're saying.

It's got nothing to do with sex, or rape or crime. It's a much more general premise - one is beholden to the consequences of an informed, deliberate action to a much greater extent than one is beholden to the consequences of an event that is forced upon them. It's a pretty universal concept that is at the heart of many laws and social mores, and it's perfectly simple to see how it applies to abortion when the pregnancy in question stems from either an informed choice or a non-consensual act.