[RD] Feminism

[Traitorfish]

To anybody who disagrees with me (which I'd imagine is almost all of you), I ask to you state your disagreements in a polite manner and provide actual counterarguments. Please do not try to shame me, or call me misogynistic, or make snarky circlejerk comments.

We spent over thirty pages doing that, and all we got in reply is "no ur wrong". You can't demand that people engage with your arguments when you refuse to engage with theirs.

 

[Lexicus]

Please do not try to shame me, or call me misogynistic, or make snarky circlejerk comments.

When you spew misogyny, you're getting called misogynistic. Better learn to deal with it.

 

[civver_764]

We spent over thirty pages doing that, and all we got in reply is "no ur wrong". You can't demand that people engage with your arguments when you refuse to engage with theirs.

First of all, I'm not demanding, just asking. You can be a jerk if you want, I'm not a moderator. Secondly, what are you even talking about? I have consistently responded to your posts. You are the one opting not to respond to my most recent post and instead make these baseless accusations. I haven't made a single post even close to "no ur wong", but many of my opponents sure have. Third of all, that message was not really directed at you, as for the most part I find that you have been engaging in a polite manner, albeit with some snarkiness here and there.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"I think this."

"Here's a bunch of problems with that."

"I think this" again.

"Maybe you didn't see the previous, but here's a bunch of problems with that again."

"I think this" yet again.

I'm starting to wonder if there is anyone over there, or if this is some sort of auto repeater. "HEY, here's the problems with that AGAIN."

"I think this" again.

"Hey, are you even reading here?"

"Well, you don't have to be rude."

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And zero women were in the army. You're also ignoring that manual labor was expected exclusively of men.

I was unaware that the women who served in the army as nurses, drivers, mechanics, clerical staff, and other support staff were not really women. That will come as news to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, who was a driver and mechanic in World War II. I'm sure she and the entire world were under the impression that she was female, especially when she bore four children to her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh.

And I addressed the issue of manual labor in my last post. You are 100% incorrect. Manual labor isn't exclusively things like ditch digging, mining, etc. Ask any woman who works on a farm.

Of course they did. I'm not devaluing their work. I think it is most accurate to say that men and women were enslaved to each other, or rather that people in general were slaves to their gender roles. What I absolutely object to is the notion that women were enslaved by men, and that men have had it better off throughout history.

It's been 34 pages, and apparently everything we've said has gone in one ear and out the other.

Female privileges throughout history:

-freedom from danger
-freedom from physically demanding labor
-freedom from the draft
-freedom to access wealth through seduction rather than work
-freedom from homelessness
-freedom from needing a job
-freedom from financial responsibility
-emotional validation

Freedom from danger: Nonsense. Tell that to any woman in a women's shelter or who has been employed in dangerous jobs. There have been many throughout history.

Freedom from physically demanding labor: My grandmother would argue that with you if she were still alive. So would one of the women I used to attend SF conventions with - she's a farmer's wife and has engaged in quite a lot of physically demanding labor over the years.

Freedom from the draft: Nope.

As of 2013, countries that were actively drafting women into military service included Bolivia, Chad, Eritrea, Israel, Mozambique and North Korea. Israel has universal female conscription, although in practice women can avoid service by claiming a religious exemption and over a third of Israeli women do so. Sudanese law allows for conscription of women, but this is not implemented in practice. In the United Kingdom during World War II, beginning in 1941, women were brought into the scope of conscription but, as all women with dependent children were exempt and many women were informally left in occupations such as nursing or teaching, the number conscripted was relatively few.

In 2015 Norway introduced female conscription, making it the first NATO member and first European country to have a legally compulsory national service for both men and women. In practice only motivated volunteers are selected to join the army in Norway.

Source: Conscription: Drafting of Women

Freedom to access wealth through seduction rather than work: You have got to be kidding. There is no way that even you could expect to sit there and tell us seriously that in the history of the human race, there have never been any men who seduce women with the goal of getting their hands on the women's money and property.

This is a "freedom" that is open to anyone who wants to try it. Most won't succeed, but it's not illegal for them to try (to the best of my knowledge).

Freedom from homelessness: Tell that to all the homeless women. They must be pretending to be homeless, just for the fun of living in their cars, or in a makeshift shelter on the street or in a patch of woods, risking sexual assault and freezing to death in the winter.

Hell, tell that to ME, as several years ago there was such a shortage of available apartments here, that I was literally half a day from being homeless - had to leave one apartment and find another... and discovered just how difficult it was to find a place that was within my budget, accessible for mobility-challenged people, and that would take cats. The place I ended up in was in a bad neighborhood (the cops hadn't cleaned out the drug dealers, hookers, and drug-addled people as much as they claimed they had, and somebody was murdered in the next building). But I was glad to get it, because the alternative would have been the street. NOBODY is guaranteed "freedom from homelessness" in my city. I was damn lucky to get out of that neighborhood and into the place where I am now, even with the recent problems.

Freedom from needing a job: Senior citizens are not expected to work. Physically and mentally disabled people who cannot work are provided some form of assistance, provided they jump through numerous hoops to qualify (some people who have lost limbs actually get asked if their condition has improved; the bureaucrats seem oblivious to the fact that medical science hasn't yet discovered how to regenerate amputated body parts). Underage children are not expected to work (although they may, in jobs that are age-appropriate and where safety rules and regulations regarding supervision are followed).

But most women are expected to work at something, whether outside the home, or inside (and do not tell me that "housewife" is not real work).

Freedom from financial responsibility: I was unaware that money just drops from the sky and that if I get into debt that I can't get out of, the bank and government will just pat me on the head and say, "That's okay, Valka; you're a woman so we forgive you. No problem, carry on."

Emotional validation: By this I take it you mean women have the freedom to expect everyone to care about their feelings but men don't?

Nonsense. Everyone has the freedom to want everyone to care about their feelings, and even expect it. Whether or not they get the validation they want depends a lot on the situation. I get that you're probably feeling picked on in this thread because most of us don't agree with you and in fact some of us find your views rather reprehensible - not because we think you deserved what your ex dished out to you, not because you're a man, but because you just won't listen and consider what we've been saying for the past 34 pages.

You've taken your own situation and turned it into this massive "feminism is an evil ideology and men are the real victims of history" pity party. You're not the only man on this forum who has had difficulties in life; numerous people here have shared their situations in various threads. Not too many of them went on a 34-page denigration of women as you have.

 

[Hygro]

I know exactly how you feel, because I have sort of been in your shoes, except for the entire different culture/upbringing part. This matter is too personal to you, and what you are doing will end up hurting you more in the end. Your society is unforgiving to those that deviate from the common narrative - especially if people sense even a tiny hint of your association to others that they feel are bad people. What you need is empathy, warmth, and light. Go after these things. Interact with people that will not judge you. Focus on your healing. You will not be able to create change while trying to heal from your trauma. People will find your arguments unconvincing until they are no longer colored by your negative experience. For me, it has taken over 3 years to heal, research into human nature, learning to meditate, and leaving the United States to find my balance again. Only now do I possess a more accurate mental model of what exactly happened to me and why.

I don't know how old you are. I'm 30. From roughly 25-28 I was crashing through a pretty major depression/identity crisis/shamefest/self-flagellation. Since coming out of it, I saw it was a phase in time and not me understanding the true nature of things (at least, any more than before or after normalized for age wisdom etc). I also have seen most men I know go through the same thing. I have a narrative for why, you do/would probably a different but mostly compatible one. But let me offer that if your painful post-America readjustment happened in your mid/late 20s, you're really not alone. Even if the triggers are different.

 

[Akka]

No Akka, that did not happen. There was no "explicitely" or "purposedly" describing of a society where such a plan was devised. I did allude agency to, loosely, those with The Means of Patriarchy to make the decisions of who gets drafted but that's not a secret cabal inventing patriarchy. That instead is dudes already informed by their organic patriarchy of old to keep reproducing the elements that keep their society reproducing. We wouldn't be talking about a system that isn't "smart" (in an A.I. or meta-organism sense) enough to reproduce itself in the first place, because if they ever existed, they didn't get this far.

I well understood this point, it's still bogus, because it's still, like I said, mixing up causes and effects.
It's not that women were prevented to be fighters to not rebel and stay subservient, it's that they weren't adequate for fighting role, and this is what made them non-fighters, and as being a fighter gave power and prestige, put them in an inferior status.

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: This thread keeps circling back around to character attacks and topics that really shouldn't be getting explored on CFC. Closed for review.

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: This thread will be remaining locked. Over 35 pages all the talking points have been shared and the cycle of attacking users or straying into disallowed subjects has been repeated several times with little redeeming value. It's time to put this to bed.