[RD] Feminism

[Ryika]

I've never had a baby; however, the women I've talked to who have were of the view that it's no picnic, and it's the hardest thing they've ever done, physically. Multiply that by however many kids they've had, and I don't blame the ones who get angry when the less-reasonable men dismiss it like it's not a big deal.

Well like I said, having a baby is hard in its own way (mainly psychologically actually), in comparison to really physically demanding activities however, having a baby is nothing. That it's "the hardest thing they've ever done" just speaks of how easy most of us have it these days, not that it's actually a task that measures up with most of the work during early Civilization.

 

[Senethro]

Well like I said, having a baby is hard in its own way (mainly psychologically actually), in comparison to really physically demanding activities however, having a baby is nothing. That it's "the hardest thing they've ever done" just speaks of how easy most of us have it these days, not that it's actually a task that measures up with most of the work during early Civilization.

For those following along, I hope this sort of thing highlights the dangers of only seeking male perspectives.

 

[Akka]

Nope. Its a conscious attempt to avoid a particular cognitive bias regarding presented information vs. all information and ensure that I'm gathering a better sample.

The problem being, it ends up being the exact opposite : you're simply applying the cognitive bias on the opinions you like instead. Moving the problem is not solving it.

You should give it a try. You're an extremely smart guy so I really don't see how you're tripping over this low hurdle of "All opinions are equally valuable but I shall not check to see if this sample of opinions is representative".

All opinions aren't equally valuable, and you're not checking if the sample is representative, you're weighting the opinions according to how their source fits with your preferences.

 

[Ryika]

For those following along, I hope this sort of thing highlights the dangers of only seeking male perspectives.

Yeah, claiming that having a baby is not as physically demanding as chopping down trees and carrying firewood back home so your people don't freeze in winter.
What a dangerous thing to say.

 

[Akka]

Well like I said, having a baby is hard in its own way (mainly psychologically actually), in comparison to really physically demanding activities however, having a baby is nothing.

I tend to fully agree with most of what you say, but I'm afraid this is just bullcrap.
I agree that physical working condition of the early civilization are well withing the same league as giving birth (at least the first couple of birth, it seems to become massively easier for many women after this), but saying giving birth is "mainl psychological" and "nothing compared to physically demanding activity" is just wrong.

 

[Ryika]

I tend to fully agree with most of what you say, but I'm afraid this is just bullcrap.
I agree that physical working condition of the early civilization are well withing the same league as giving birth (at least the first couple of birth, it seems to become massively easier for many women after this), but saying giving birth is "mainl psychological" and "nothing compared to physically demanding activity" is just wrong.

I didn't say that though, I said that having a baby is hard in it's own way because of the mixture of relatively hard physical work, and lots of psychological stress.

On the scale of "hard" that was used in the context of the post - purely how much physical effort is required - it simply doesn't measure up. Remember that the topic was whether men did the most of the "physically hard work", not who has the "harder job" when factoring together all the things that make for a demanding job, including physical, psychological, emotional and ... that fourth thing that I can't think of now.

Or to phrase it differently... I'm not saying having a baby is "easier" than going and chopping wood on the overall scale, different types of "difficult" are hard to compare to each other, just that it's not as physically demanding.

 

[Akka]

On the scale of "hard" that was used in the context of the post - purely how much physical effort is required - it simply doesn't measure up.

And that's the part where I disagree. Giving birth is physically on the same scale as running a marathon. There is hardly any human activity that is noticeably harder than that.

 

[Ryika]

But you give birth once a year at max. I'm talking about the job of caring for a baby vs. the job of <whatever you needed to do in the past>, not the act of birth.

 

[Senethro]

Yeeesh. Go look up some stats on mother death in childbirth for modern medicine and then to give yoruself some chills look out estimated pre-medicine mortality as well.

And then phone your mother.

 

[Ryika]

Yeeesh. Go look up some stats on mother death in childbirth for modern medicine and then to give yoruself some chills look out estimated pre-medicine mortality as well.

And then phone your mother.

This literally has nothing to do with the topic I was discussing.

But it perfectly illustrates the problem. Death in childbirth is terrible, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what task is the most physically demanding.

It seems to me like when I say: "Being a mother is not as physically demanding as many of the jobs that needed to be done in the past.", then for you that translates into: "I think women didn't have it hard during history!" - which is utter nonsense.

 

[Senethro]

What a petty and pedantic attempt to backoff without admitting fault.

 

[Ryika]

Well if that's the conclusion you draw, fine with me. I still fully stand by my initial point, which is available for anybody to read:

Note that he didn't say women didn't "work hard", he said "hard work". I think he meant in terms of "how much muscle mass is required to do them".

And in that context, he's correct, because that's entirely true for most of history, that's what sexual dimorphism is there for. The group that has to do the hunting can focus on developing muscles, and the group that has to give birth, take care of children and gather berries can focus their bodily development on those parts, that's how you maximize the profit you get from the calories that are available to your people, so obviously we evolved into these roles.

Of course, taking care of the babies, and doing housework and doing the less demanding tasks that whatever your living situation required are "hard" in their own way, but both simply aren't as demanding for the body as most of the "hard work" was during most of history. That's not an insult, that's simple reality. And that's not a bad thing either, women's role during early society was not to do "the hard work", women did the easier tasks, because that's what their bodies were capable of doing.

Haven't backed away from any of that, all I've done is defend myself from people who read that and have interpreted all sorts of nonsense into it.

Or in other words, your post reads to me like:
"Wow, you don't accept the things I make up about you as true? You're backing off! I win!"

 

[metalhead]

Have you cared for an infant, or even a toddler for that matter? Having done both that and demanding physical labor, child care is infinitely more difficult and demanding. Demands on the psyche manifest in all sorts of ways in the body. I don't think you understand what you're talking about, at all. And throughout history women have cared for children full time while also doing a whole host of other manual tasks, like gathering food and fetching water.

Also, men commit the large majority of violent crimes, to circle back to that point. 85%-ish.

 

[Ryika]

Have yo cared for an infant, or even a toddler for that matter? Having done both that and demanding physical labor, child care is infinitely more difficult and demanding.

Yeah, I've been babysitter for my cousin quite a lot in the past.

Demands on the psyche manifest in all sorts of ways in the body.

Yes, I totally agree with that. Doesn't have anything to do with the muscles required though, you are still not staying within the context of what I said.

Again, the context is: "I think he meant in terms of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"how much muscle mass is required to do them" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<"

Everything else I'm saying builds on that, and nothing else. Caring for a baby simply does not measure up to most of the jobs of the far-away past in that context.

That does not mean I'm saying that caring for a baby is not a demanding task overall.

I don't think you understand what you're talking about, at all.

Ironic of course, given that you are the one who literally does not understand what I'm talking about and instead thinks that I'm saying ignorant things about a topic that I'm not actually talking about.

I don't even understand why it's so hard for people to understand that I'm not making generalized statements, but statements that are only meant for the context that I have defined before.

It's like I'm saying: "Well, in the context of lions, men lie around a lot while women go hunting."
And then your response is: "Whhhhaaat, are you accusing me and my male friends of being lazy?!"

And throughout history women have cared for children full time while also doing a whole host of other manual tasks, like gathering food and fetching water.

True. Still not sure how it's relevant.

Also, men commit the large majority of violent crimes, to circle back to that point. 85%-ish.

Still not an important point though, because outside of gangs and similar environments, the men who are doing the violence are not the same men who are receiving the violence.

That's again the concept of original sin. "Because you are a man, you as a victim don't count as much as a female victim."

 

[Senethro]

lol this is such a lawyerly attempt to invent a specific reading of a previous post, all to protect ones ego.

 

[Ryika]

If you don't have anything constructive to say, then maybe you should leave this thread? It's [RD] after all.

I've explained my point above, if you disagree, fine with me, but stop accusing me of things just because you got too emotional and missed the context.

 

[Senethro]

Well like I said, having a baby is hard in its own way (mainly psychologically actually), in comparison to really physically demanding activities however, having a baby is nothing. That it's "the hardest thing they've ever done" just speaks of how easy most of us have it these days, not that it's actually a task that measures up with most of the work during early Civilization.

Hey we can move on anytime you want but this is an absurd hill to die on.

 

[Ryika]

That post was a response to Valka D'Ur, who wrote to me:

I've never had a baby; however, the women I've talked to who have were of the view that it's no picnic, and it's the hardest thing they've ever done, physically. Multiply that by however many kids they've had, and I don't blame the ones who get angry when the less-reasonable men dismiss it like it's not a big deal.

White quoting my post:

Note that he didn't say women didn't "work hard", he said "hard work". I think he meant in terms of "how much muscle mass is required to do them".

And in that context, he's correct, because that's entirely true for most of history, that's what sexual dimorphism is there for. The group that has to do the hunting can focus on developing muscles, and the group that has to give birth, take care of children and gather berries can focus their bodily development on those parts, that's how you maximize the profit you get from the calories that are available to your people, so obviously we evolved into these roles.

Of course, taking care of the babies, and doing housework and doing the less demanding tasks that whatever your living situation required are "hard" in their own way, but both simply aren't as demanding for the body as most of the "hard work" was during most of history. That's not an insult, that's simple reality. And that's not a bad thing either, women's role during early society was not to do "the hard work", women did the easier tasks, because that's what their bodies were capable of doing.

The context is pretty clear in my opinion, that you're either incapable of understanding that, or too dishonest to accept that, or simply want to misinterpret my posts because it gives you an opportunity to whine about nonsense, is not my problem.

Your continuous attempts to make it seem like I said these things as generalized statements, and not as statements for that specific context, are tiresome.

 

[Senethro]

Your post was a ridiculous statement read on its own or in context. "Mainly psychologically actually". Wow. Yeah.

Most people would regard a strenuous activity that kills you pretty often as "physically demanding". And yet you accuse me of dishonesty.
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Your reading of "hard work" is very odd. I assume you're a non-native English speaker?

 

[civver_764]

Wow. Seven pages of this thread and it's still on topic.

Hi Lemon Merchant, thank you for your response.

2. You are not describing feminism. You are describing the abuse of feminism, specifically the perversion of the cause by people with their own agenda.

That may be true. I guess the question is, do the basic premises of feminism inherently lead to this sort of abuse?

That being said, I would like to be paid equally for doing the same job as a man does. The average woman is paid something like $0.83 for every dollar a man makes in a corresponding or similar job. Not fair at all.

I want you to be paid equally too. That said, the wage gap is a complex thing and I think it's actually closer to like $.94 on the dollar for most industries, and that's just an average. Actually I recently read an article that said in most major cities, women and men are within .01 or .02 of each other, with women even making more in some cities.

It is super-sucky that you have been in not just one, but two abusive family situations. You could do with unpicking the difference between the actions of individuals and groups though. I'm not nearly delicate enough to help you through that. Go back and look at your OP. With your additional context it looks a lot like you're wounded and lashing out. Are you really sure you're not suffering a spillover of anger when you call something evil?

It's mostly shock value. I guess you guys don't know my personality but I tend to talk in extremes especially when I want to discuss something, and I like catchy titles that pop out at you.

I didn't think so many people would take it personally though. I've tried to make it clear numerous times that I am all for equal rights and my only problem is with what I perceive to be the basic ideas behind feminism. I think most women are great people and I have no desire to oppress or disrespect them.