[RD] Feminism

[civver_764]

The difference is that LGBT people really are a minority. Women are not a minority, and they enjoy many advantages compared to men. You can't really say that men have it better than women, both face problems unique to their gender.

 

[Senethro]

Men have it better than women in Saudi Arabia.

Men have it better than women in Switzerland in 1969.

 

[Gori the Grey]

How would you correct that narrative then?

Sorry for being so late to my reply. To say that the relics of patriarchy continue to advantage men and disadvantage women is not to say that women are "victims" or that any given man is a "perpetrator." Most women I know inspired by feminist ideals not only don't see themselves as victims, they would positively counsel other women not to regard themselves as victims. Even "victims" of rape are encouraged to think of themselves as "survivors" instead.

If you're playing Civ on Deity, you're disadvantaged relative to the other civs, but you don't think of yourself as a victim. And you think of the other civs as enjoying advantages but not perpetrating those advantages (unless you spawn next to Shaka, in which case he's definitely gonna perpetrate all over your a**). You're not wrong that each gender faces challenges specific to that gender, but women tend to face more challenges getting to more of the things that most people regard as desirable goals.

 

[Hygro]

Men have it better than women in Saudi Arabia.

Men have it better than women in Switzerland in 1969.

That's like, space and time bro

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Because that's my perception and I'm allowed to share it. I also never said women took anything away from me, that's not my style. However, is it not a fact that there exist affirmative actions policies which favor women? Is it not a fact there are scholarships exclusively for women?

Yes, it's a fact. It's also a fact that throughout the vast time of recorded history, women were either restricted from obtaining, or outright denied an education - even the basics of learning to read and write, or to access higher learning if they did have the basics.

I guess you didn't bother to read anything on that site I linked about Canada, did you? There's an entry about a Canadian woman who earned a medical degree from an American university in 1867. It was 13 YEARS before she was actually allowed to put that degree to the use it was intended - to actually practice medicine - in Canada (in 1880).

The way you've been carrying on about this, it was a logical assumption that you meant that a woman had taken a job you thought you should have had, simply because she was a woman and you're not. Ditto the scholarship.

Well, guess what - there are other types of favoritism as well. I was flatly told not to bother applying for certain jobs during the summer months when I was going to college, because the employer would have to pay me more as someone over 18. They would rather pay a high school kid because they could pay less.

That's one reason I decided to become my own boss - the only person who could decide my wages was me, and the only person who could fire me was me.

I did not say I don't care about the past, I said I didn't want to discuss history. Big difference.

Same difference, as far as I'm concerned. You don't want to discuss the historical reasons why the modern situation is the way it is.

Please show where I tried to "explain" women.

I already did.

Yes. Telling me that I'm mansplaining when I'm just trying to share my opinion or responding one of your posts is aggressive and sexist. It makes me feel like you're just going to dismiss what I have to say because I have a penis. What you're really doing is telling me to shut up, and I take offense to that. I would never say that sort of thing to you.

Y'know what? I don't care what anatomy you do or don't have. That's between you and whatever intimate partners you may have. Don't flatter yourself that it's something that matters to me. If your notion were true, I would be dismissing everything that every man says on this site, and I obviously don't do that.

I'm not telling you to shut up. I'm telling you that actually listening to what people are telling you here instead of just repeating yourself and dismissing the views and information you're getting would be a positive step.

Again, you're conflating feminism with women. I did not say "women are evil" or even "feminists are evil". Please stop misrepresenting me.

Recall the former thread title. There is no real difference between saying "feminists are evil" and "feminism is an evil ideology."

And if you don't like men looking at you, dress down a little, or wear less make up, or none at all. I have absolutely zero sympathy for a woman who gets dressed to the nines, or dresses provocatively, and then complains that men are looking at her. Uh, hello? We as humans have hundreds of thousands of years of evolution behind us that causes us to size up and look for potential enemies or sexual partners. It's in our DNA. It's called an instinct, ladies, and you do it too. It's hypocritical to say otherwise, and no amount of social shaming will make either gender stop doing it. It will just make them more discreet.

Yes, it is hypocritical to dress in such a way that's designed to draw attention and then complain when attention is paid. However, I have to wonder how many of the women you've counseled have been blamed because of what they were wearing? The "she didn't present herself wearing crinolines and a long skirt" excuse didn't even fly years ago when the man who uttered it was trying to wiggle out of a sexual assault charge (his victim was a teenage girl who was wearing a halter top and shorts to a job interview). It sure as hell shouldn't fly now.

That was completely not the point.
The point was that when you describe your own experience as a woman, it's taken by our resident posters as solid evidence about women treatment in our society as a whole. I wonder how they will take the exact same kind of data, but coming from the other side.

It might not be your point. It's what I was thinking and decided to share at the time. This thread has prompted a lot of memories and reflection for me. Most of my family is dead now, and I can't even talk to my father about this because he doesn't remember the vast majority of his own life. The good part about that is that he doesn't smoke or drink anymore - can't remember it, has no desire to take it up. The bad part is that I can't talk to him about things I've finally figured out, after 20 or 30 years of reflection and what I learned from my aunt about my mother. I will never be able to get his perspective on things, because it's buried forever in a mind that can't remember it.

Differently because the context is different. Its bloody difficult to get some hardheaded, non-statistically minded people to accept testimony from non-participants. So when a forum has few and fewer willing (because it gets heated and nasty) participants that can bring a female perspective, then yeah, I would give them a bit more credence. Its not about solid evidence, (fo rwhich I prefer stats) its about the inclusion of viewpoints that are otherwise easy to exclude.

Yep. I've made the point quite a few times over the years that the culture that's developed in OT tends to repel a lot of women. There are likely more women who stay in the Civ forums than there are who post regularly here, or even add in the semi-regular posters. I've had PM conversations with a few over the years who have mentioned this problem; one of them flat out said that she was curious about OT, saw how some of the threads were going, and backed right out again.

Well like I said, having a baby is hard in its own way (mainly psychologically actually), in comparison to really physically demanding activities however, having a baby is nothing. That it's "the hardest thing they've ever done" just speaks of how easy most of us have it these days, not that it's actually a task that measures up with most of the work during early Civilization.

Wow. I dare you to walk up to the women with whom I had the discussion that included the words I used in my post and say that. Unless you've been pregnant and given birth, you really have no way to know this. My knowledge of pregnancy and childbirth comes from reading and listening to others who have experienced it; I would certainly never presume to say I know what it feels like personally or brush it off as not a big deal. Clearly it was (and is) a big deal, since we're still not in an era in which women are guaranteed to come out of childbirth alive.

And you do understand that my perspective on these things spans more time than just the last 10 or 20 years, right? Do you also realize that childbirth involves more than just the birth? Some of the clients I did typing for back in the '80s and '90s were nursing students. One of the programs they took part in during the second year of their 4-year program was to be matched with an expectant mother in the community. They had to interview the woman before the birth, get to know the family situation, and act as a resource person for that woman - answer whatever questions she might have that didn't require a doctor to answer, explain what the woman should expect, and they had to be with the woman when she gave birth. There was one time when a client in this program had to literally run out of my house because her pager went off - that meant the woman she was assigned to had gone to the hospital to have her baby. After the birth, these nursing students had a follow up interview with the mother and had to write the whole experience up in a term paper. Doing those papers taught me much more about pregnancy and childbirth than I'd ever wanted to know. This was real-time stuff, with real people in my community. I was never told the identities of the mothers (for privacy reasons), but there were times when I'd see a birth announcement in the paper and piece together bits of information and realize that some of those were about people my student nurse clients had written about. Some of those women had difficult situations.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Yes, it is hypocritical to dress in such a way that's designed to draw attention and then complain when attention is paid. However, I have to wonder how many of the women you've counseled have been blamed because of what they were wearing? The "she didn't present herself wearing crinolines and a long skirt" excuse didn't even fly years ago when the man who uttered it was trying to wiggle out of a sexual assault charge (his victim was a teenage girl who was wearing a halter top and shorts to a job interview). It sure as hell shouldn't fly now.

I'm sure that many of the women that I have counseled could have been considered as dressing provocatively. In that context, my comment seems a little heartless and insensitive, but that is not the point that I was trying to make. A man does not automatically get the right to sexually assault a woman due to her mode of dress (he doesn't have the right under any circumstances). Only a lowlife idiot (and I use the term idiot medically) would try to use that as a defense and expect it to work. That's a whole other can of worms, and I got shut down in another thread for bringing it up.

No, sexual assault victims aside, my point was about women (particularly feminists) complaining about male attention. It's natural for a person of one gender to look at another gender and if the other person is attractive, to appreciate it. I'm sorry, everyone, but that is an innate human behaviour. Women look as much as men do, but some of them consider it a problem when a man looks at them. It's very hypocritical. Here's a little example of stupidity and hypocrisy:

There was a thing in the news last year where a woman decided to film her walk to work (I think it was in New York) and counted the number of times she was "sexually assaulted". I watched the video (she was not physically assaulted), but what she was counting were so called "verbal sexual assaults". Yes there were some cat calls and some leering, as she was pretty and was dressed well, but some of the men accused of this heinous crime simply said "good morning". Over reaction, much? I mean, if a man can't say good morning to a woman without fear of being arrested, there is something seriously wrong with our society. Cat calls and leering are one thing, and they always make me feel uncomfortable, but I'm not going to slap a man's face for saying good morning. In fact, I'll probably return the greeting with a smile.

A woman should be able to dress as she wishes and behave how she likes to without fear of reprisal, but she should also realize that sometimes you attract attention when you're well dressed or dressed provocatively. It should be no surprise that men will look at such a woman (so will other women). I've sat around a table at lunch with my girlfriends and listened while they prattled on about how good looking the man a few tables away is, and how they would like to cozy up with him, blah, blah, blah. If one of them started complaining that a man was looking at them (not leering, looking), they would certainly be told how hypocritical they were being. I tend to be blunt.

 

[NovaKart]

I remember that video. People also criticized it because the video only showed black and Latino men saying things to her and they made some excuse that there were audio issues every time the white men said something so they edited those out.

I think she walked around a few black and Latino neighborhoods in New York for several hours and those areas just have a more vocal street culture. Like I've been there and people have said stuff to me too even though I'm male, not sexual, it just seems more normal to shout things to strangers but in white neighborhoods no.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Anecdote that may or may not relate:

Spoiler :

I was walking down a street with a friend, on our way to a sporting event. Coming the other way down the sidewalk was a couple. Fairly ordinary guy, with a cute girl dressed in an unbuttoned button down shirt tied off under her breasts and cut off jeans that had about an inch of material left in the crotch and were slit up the sides all the way to the belt loops. My friend, being a notoriously unsatisfied male was probably staring openly, and I was certainly paying reasonable attention.

When we're about ten feet away and starting to do the muddled maneuvering that people going opposite ways on a sidewalk have to do she says, more than loudly enough to be heard by all, "Are you just gonna let him stare at me like that?" A quick check confirms she is glaring daggers at my friend.

Being me, I locked eyes with the guy and said "If I was out with a girl dressed like that and no one looked I'd know I was making a mistake." I really hoped he would get the joke, and be dissuaded from being pushed into a fight...because there was no doubt in my mind that that was her intent. As far as I'm concerned she was playing the "fight for me" game that is common among all female mammals, and I wanted no part of it.

By the way, I agree with NovaKart that there is a difference in how vocal the street culture is in different neighborhoods. I find that heavy concentrations of USian white people create hugely repressed dead zones that I do not enjoy being in at all.

 

[Akka]

I'm sorry, everyone, but that is an innate human behaviour.

What I find weird is that you even feel the need to say "sorry" about that. Stating facts requires an apology now ?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It does in Canada.

 

[Angst]

I know this has passed through ten pages at this point, but I want to deconstruct the assumptions taken in the OP.

Hello everybody. In this thread I will be arguing that that we need a better, more equitable gender movement than feminism. The basic reasons for this are:

1. Feminism is anti-male
For example -- Feminism teaches that a "patriarchy" runs the world. It teaches that men benefit from this, and women are disadvantaged by this. This creates an atmosphere of disdain towards males. Males are taught that they need to correct themselves and their sons ("teach boys not to rape"), that they have a "toxic masculinity", and that even appreciating the beauty of a woman is akin to abuse.

If we look at the world through a more objective lens, we see that there is no "patriarchy", or at least that it does not benefit men at the expense of women. Gender roles have pros and cons for both genders, and while I support moving beyond these roles, claiming that men had it "easier" is just dishonest.

2. Feminism is anti-sex
For example -- If women are portrayed in a way that is sexually appealing to men, that is the "male gaze" and it harms women, according to feminism. I think this is totally perverted, one of the greatest aspects of women is their beauty. Men are designed to appreciate this, and in fact it gives women a certain power over men who find them attractive. That's part of the biological force that keeps our species going.

3. Feminism encourages victim mentality
For example -- Despite having laws in place since the 1960's which ban pay discrimination based on gender, feminists still like to complain about the "gender pay gap". On International Women's Day, women skipped work and protested in the street, to show people a "day without women". This is just childish, and certainly not a good way to advance in your career. What exactly are they trying to accomplish anyways? Do they want a law that mandates all employees receive the same pay? Nothing comes out of protests like that besides the feminist victim complex becoming more solidified.

We need a better gender movement, one that recognizes the sacrifices and merits of both genders. One that does not shame one gender, and makes the other a victim. One that recognizes that men and women are merely two parts of the whole, and stresses unity rather than division.

Feminism is a huge family of thought structures, varying from each of your examples. Before going through your claims below, I want to suggest this to you: open your eyes. You are oversimplifying/generalizing a century(ies) old movement to certain subsets of Tumblr and/or circlejerks referring to these subsets. Feminism is a massive beast.

1 Does a patriarchy run the world?
This is the only real claim of yours where feminists are somewhat consistent. Even if they call the world's power structures something else than patriarchy, most feminist critique has to do with dealing away with problematic political and cultural structures at least associated with the patriarchy which did use to exist. So some feminists don't think the world is patriarchal, but they recognize that structures below governing are still toxic. Some radical feminists want to implement a feminist dictatorship. Some think capitalism is the problem. Some think capitalism is the solution. Now think for yourself - what do each of these feminists think of the patriarchy? Some think the patriarchy is capitalist, some think capitalism can solve it - do you understand that those ideas you critique are incredibly nuanced?

2 Atmosphere of disdain towards males.
Most feminists I know consider males just as damaged by the power structures in place as females.

3 Men are taught to teach boys not to rape
... How horrible indeed.
I'm not sure exactly what your problem is here. Some feminists want men to educate their sons. Some want to educate men directly. Some are heavily invested into preventing rape, some abhor the idea that men can't be raped and try to promote knowledge about those men that does suffer rape. Some incredibly radical feminists want to promote rape of men.

4 Toxic masculinity
The concept of toxic masculinity has to do with power structures that surpresses males whose interests or manners are shaped by toxic expectations, not by what they're actually invested in. Dealing with toxic masculinity allows traditionally masculine people to express themselves in that way and people that don't subscribe to mannerisms associated with masculinity can be themselves and be happy. Also, not all feminists believe in toxic masculinity.

6 Appreciating the beauty of a woman is akin to the abuse.
Most feminists I know don't consider appreciating the beauty of a woman abuse. Not true for all feminists.

7 Objective lens for x.
Lol just no. You just claim there is no patriarchy because objectivity. That's like saying x is true because it's true. You actually counter a valid statistic later in your claim with a dismissal due to an anecdote. Do you understand what objectivity means?

8 Feminists thinking that gender roles are bad
Gender roles have pros and cons indeed. Some want to do away with them at large, but many believe they aren't inherently problematic, but rather that everyone should be able to choose as they want. Most feminists I know are happy with their gender roles. Some hate all gender identities as freedom limiting. The idea is that individuals should be able to be as happy as possible, to many this means increasing freedom, and to some this means doing away with gender roles, to some to accept them but to dehierarchize them, and to some to embrace them (ie Beyoncé does the latter)

9 Men have it easier
You can disagree with the idea that men have it easier and still be feminist, refer to toxic masculinity. Some feminists believe men have it worse, some that men have it as bad, some that men have it easier.

10 Feminism is anti-sex
Many feminists believe sex is wonderful. I've heard a feminist go "Women shouldn't submit to men" and just following that go "Sex isn't exciting without power structures". Sex is complicated and feminists think very different things of it. Many support porn as the great bestial equalizer. Many highlight that sex is good if both parties have the power to choose the sex they want (ie that a man doesn't get socially emasculated if he wants a girl to put on a strap-on or whatever). Some believe sex can be used to subvert power structures and grant some power to women.

11 The "male gaze"
Some feminists find this an issue. Some don't. I know of a feminist artist personally where the vast majority of her art is Madonna pictures, as they would be under the male gaze. She doesn't think this is an issue. Again, feminists believe different things. Some also find an issue with the male gaze yet in their analysis of it they consider nuances that make critique of it more problematic than constructive. It's more complicated than you make it out to be.

12 One of the greatest aspects of women is their beauty
Some feminists believe that this is a source of power for women, and therefore don't have an issue with it. Some feminists find the statement objectivization due to highlighting beauty as opposed to something masculine ideals, and that you appeal to certain structures that make it problematic for women not to chase beauty for themselves. Feminists often highlight choice, again, for people to chase what they want. That said you followed this statement with

13 Men are designed to appreciate this
which is just a huge blah statement. Yes, some men are, perhaps most. Some aren't. Cultural forces are incredibly powerful (refer to feral children for a simple proof of this) and it's incredibly complicated where exactly the wiring originates. The appeal to nature is however a huge fallacy, and the most lazy of fallacies you can refer to. Humans have for a large part power to overcome many of their natural drives. Some feminists agree with me here, some don't. Some find the issue more nuanced in regards to choosing your own identity and become happy, without fear of toxic masculinity. Some believe that men are designed to appreciate this, and that's why men are dangerous. I'm also quite tired of this blah argument because it just doesn't hold up even with straight people I know. Going "this sex is designed to that" is the very same as being one of the darker shades of feminism. You're both part of the problem here. And many feminists think so, and again, some don't.

14 Feminism encourages victim mentality
Dude this is just categorically wrong and incredibly problematic. Feminism has been many things since its inception, and when people are treated worse, they're allowed to point it out. Some feminists don't want to encourage victim mentality this way, emphasizing that the way out of it is through sheer personal empowerment.

15 Gender pay gap
is a statistically proven thing. All counters to the gender pay gap have been taken into consideration in recent stat models. There is a demonstrable gender pay gap between males and females that perform the same amount and quality of work with the same vacation times, same breaks for having kids and so on. Referring to

16 Protesting
as an analogy intended to support your misunderstanding of how statistics work is just... well, wrong. Again, some feminists don't believe the gender pay gap is real, some think it's irrelevant, and some believe protesting is part of the problem. Some think protesting is a problem because it misrepresents a sex to people like you, some think it's a problem because it's empty signalling in a fallacious system, and some think protesting is whining over things that really aren't that awful.

17 Better gender movement
This is something feminists are doing constantly, perhaps most easily demonstrable through the massive internal critique feminist thinking constantly recieves. If anything, this is not one movement, so the claim is, again, categorically wrong.

All in all "feminism is bad" is, to put it blunlty, an outright stupid thing to say. Many feminists hate each others' guts due to considering each other a part of a problem. Feminism is not a coherent ideology, but rather a family of a plethora of different ideas. It's much more constructive to actually consider the ideas in themselves (also, to understand them and why people hold them). Seeing that your OP overgeneralizes such a vast field of conflicting ideas and concludes "this is vicious", I really can't take you seriously. Have you learned something during the last ten pages? No idea. I'm not interested in reading them, to be blunt. You know yourself whether you have sufficiently distanced yourself from the OP or not, you don't have to prove anything to me. So if you have distanced yourself since, you don't need to answer this post.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

What I find weird is that you even feel the need to say "sorry" about that. Stating facts requires an apology now ?

I wasn't apologizing. The word "sorry" is a Canadian-ism and translates as "Too bad, so sad, get over yourself you big baby..." It makes more sense that way doesn't it?

It does in Canada.

 

[Lexicus]

Men can't suffer from sexism imposed by other men? Would that hold true for women as well?

We just don't call this "sexism" - we call it something along the lines of "rich man's war, poor man's fight." I've already agreed it's a consequence of patriarchy.

 

[NovaKart]

We just don't call this "sexism" - we call it something along the lines of "rich man's war, poor man's fight." I've already agreed it's a consequence of patriarchy.

Maybe you don't and I don't know the "we" you're referring to. I think most people would.

 

[Lexicus]

Maybe you don't and I don't know the "we" you're referring to. I think most people would.

No, "most people" would certainly not refer to things men do to other men as sexism.

 

[NovaKart]

No, "most people" would certainly not refer to things men do to other men as sexism.

Unfair treatment based on gender is sexism regardless of who does it to who. I believe most people would call it such. I'm thinking maybe your definition of sexism comes from gender studies theory.

 

[Lexicus]

Unfair treatment based on gender is sexism regardless of who does it to who. I believe most people would call it such. It sounds like you have a purely academic definition of sexism and probably racism too which is at odds with how most people would view it outside of gender studies textbooks.

I've never taken a gender studies class. But I strongly doubt you will find much popular support for the idea that men sending other men to war constitutes sexism. Perhaps among men (and women) looking for reasons to denounce feminism.

 

[NovaKart]

I've never taken a gender studies class. But I strongly doubt you will find much popular support for the idea that men sending other men to war constitutes sexism. Perhaps among men (and women) looking for reasons to denounce feminism.

A male only draft these days in a post women's movement world is definitely going to draw accusations of sexism and not just from those looking to criticize the feminist movement.

 

[Lexicus]

A male only draft these days in a post women's movement world is definitely going to draw accusations of sexism and not just from those looking to criticize the feminist movement.

Yes, sexism against women because they're not allowed to participate on equal terms with men.

 

[NovaKart]

Yes, sexism against women because they're not allowed to participate on equal terms with men.

Except women are allowed in the military, does exemption from selective service requirements not allow them to participate on equal terms with men?