Feudalism or Engineering?

[r_rolo1]

Someone is doing a Feudalism oracling with NA... that is not fair I wonder if you would do the same with Shaka

 

[semirami]

Someone is doing a Feudalism oracling with NA... that is not fair I wonder if you would do the same with Shaka

lol, actually this game ended 3 turns later, when a barb archer came to visit Chaokia Good night Dan Quayle

 

[codewarrior]

Ways of Bulbing engineering:
#2 - GS: with prereqs, IW, Aesthetics, Calendar and Alphabet, no Fishing ( blocks Sailing, Compass, Optics, astro ), no Drama and no CoL ( to block philo and Paper )

Ah, but you don't need Calendar, which requires Sailing. It's blocked when you skip Fishing.

 

[r_rolo1]

I noticed that after I wrote, but forgot to correct. And you can also only skip Meditation, CS and Theo, to prevent the Paper line of bulbing ( other minor correction.... ).

 

[budweiser]

Ah, but you don't need Calendar, which requires Sailing. It's blocked when you skip Fishing.

Yeah, I found that out. As soon as I clicked Calendar, it lit up fishing which threw the whole thing out the window. I ended up just researching engineering the long way. It seems you have to go pretty far into the game to forego COL. But, those extra trade routes are pretty nice from castles.

 

[dutchfire]

Trebs vs. Longbows

Easy choice, Trebs. You don't win wars by defending, you win them by attacking

 

[harusame]

definitely engineering

AI tend to tech feudalism, so you can trade it with them

you also need machinery for Printing Press anyway

and pikemen > knight
longbow men is only for defense

 

[TheMeInTeam]

definitely engineering

AI tend to tech feudalism, so you can trade it with them

you also need machinery for Printing Press anyway

and pikemen > knight
longbow men is only for defense

Knights used to be by far my least favorite mounted troop, but over the past month I don't feel that way any more. If you compare their relative strength to their counter-unit, knights have the most (although what the official counter to cuirassers is is subject to debate also, so maybe them). Spears have 2/3 the strength of HA's and rifles, while they get less bonus vs mounted inherently, are only 1 str point away.

Knights are cool in that they have first strike immunity and are available in a time period where civics to aid extra promos are available without the more common opportunity cost of stronger civics that show up later. In this respect, a pike will struggle greatly to deal with a combat shock knight, and a 3rd promo on knights is relatively common. Pikes are only 60% the strength of knights, but knights also have the unusual mounted distinction of being *far* stronger than the other units that do not directly counter them, making them quite powerful until the time of cuirassers or rifles. Guilds comes much earlier than the techs allowing those units.

They still need something to lower defenses however, and unless you go with a great wall opening it's very hard to bring enough EP and spies while still making them. All that aside, machinery to engineering is the superior tech path IMO because you can trade either for feudalism pretty easily and the trebs allow for serious damage to all medieval defenders also. Engineering is a pretty solid tech for EE players also because of the bonus castles give to that (and power rating).

 

[pangu]

Feudalism

I almost always rush 2-3 civs with axes+swords until my empire is almost bankrupt from the expansion. Early medieval age is the time when I desperately try to avoid a strike and consolidate my huge empire with 13-18 cities (market+courthouses+cottages) and get my economy back into shape before the next expansion with cuirassers or rifles or gren/cannons. Feudalism is very good coz:

1/ It enables vassal state which may get the AI I am attacking to capitulate. This helps with releasing the cultural pressure in cities I recently captured from that AI andenable more tiles to be worked in those cities.

2/ Longlows are good for defense, which is what I do at that period of time.

3/ It is on the tech path to guilds and I need grocers to deal with health and get more gold to research better.

I think engineering is probably more useful if one prefers to expand in the medieval age, whereas feudalism is more useful if one already expanded heavily and is trying to consolidate.

 

[linfeixb27]

Of course Engineering. My civil rarely tech Feudalism. Feudalism enables longbowman, but I do not need defense, instead I built good relation with my rivals and build strong offesive armies. Feudalism enables CS, but CoL is better. I think CoL is a neccessary tech because everyone need courthose and Caste System. Feudalism enables Vassalage, but I prefer powerful Bureaucracy, and Theocracy and Barracks ensure units starting with 5 experinces. therefore 2 more from Vassalage does not matter.

 

[Groogaroo]

I'm a wimp when it comes to war so almost always tech feudalism first, then turtle up and hope nobody DOW's on me.

 

[Diamondeye]

I'm a wimp when it comes to war so almost always tech feudalism first, then turtle up and hope nobody DOW's on me.

I guess you love playing Wang Kon or Sitting Bull then aswell?

 

[r_rolo1]

longbow men is only for defense

Clearly you never used Drill IV Lbows on attack

Even with tech parity they can be a nice PITA to your enemies, mainly because unlike maces and Knights, AI does not invest that much in Cover and there is no unit in this game ( expect for the quechua ) that has native anti-archery abilities. This makes that the AI rarely makes a organized attemt to stop a Lbow + catapult rush

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I'd rather have engineering first, but I usually end up getting feudalism first coz its easier to get.

 

[dutchfire]

Knights used to be by far my least favorite mounted troop, but over the past month I don't feel that way any more. If you compare their relative strength to their counter-unit, knights have the most (although what the official counter to cuirassers is is subject to debate also, so maybe them). Spears have 2/3 the strength of HA's and rifles, while they get less bonus vs mounted inherently, are only 1 str point away.

Knights are cool in that they have first strike immunity and are available in a time period where civics to aid extra promos are available without the more common opportunity cost of stronger civics that show up later. In this respect, a pike will struggle greatly to deal with a combat shock knight, and a 3rd promo on knights is relatively common. Pikes are only 60% the strength of knights, but knights also have the unusual mounted distinction of being *far* stronger than the other units that do not directly counter them, making them quite powerful until the time of cuirassers or rifles. Guilds comes much earlier than the techs allowing those units.

They still need something to lower defenses however, and unless you go with a great wall opening it's very hard to bring enough EP and spies while still making them. All that aside, machinery to engineering is the superior tech path IMO because you can trade either for feudalism pretty easily and the trebs allow for serious damage to all medieval defenders also. Engineering is a pretty solid tech for EE players also because of the bonus castles give to that (and power rating).

Nice analysis, but you miss War Elephants. At strength 8, they're 100% stronger than spearmen, their direct counter.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Completely unrelated, but I just amused myself by imagining what it would be to go on any other messageboard on the internet, not game related or anything, and post a thread which only says "Engineering or Feudalism?" without further explanation.

"well, uh, I guess engineering is pretty cool".

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nice analysis, but you miss War Elephants. At strength 8, they're 100% stronger than spearmen, their direct counter.

They're also rare . There is no classical counter to war elephants. They're in a league of their own. However once the AI gets them pikes are effective counters to wellies. Elephants are a strong inclusion in a stack and good anti-mounted until cavalry.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Clearly you never used Drill IV Lbows on attack

Even with tech parity they can be a nice PITA to your enemies, mainly because unlike maces and Knights, AI does not invest that much in Cover and there is no unit in this game ( expect for the quechua ) that has native anti-archery abilities. This makes that the AI rarely makes a organized attemt to stop a Lbow + catapult rush

Immortals also possess the archery bonus, although they're not meant to kill longbows either.

Longbows on offense are good stack defense. Promoted with guerrilla or (if early) woodsman they can be GREAT stack defense/cleanup units for siege. The effective counter to them is knights, which once the AI gets it WILL make . You have a large window to use them on offense then but as you pointed out siege will be doing much of the work.

My problem with bothering to go for feudalism early is that the AIs usually prioritize it, so you can often trade for it. Also, it's not exactly my favorite tech to trade around to the AIs . Sometimes you could but I feel far worse trading away something like aesthetics, CoL, or even in some cases machinery as opposed to given an AI its favorite spammed defender!

 

[JBossch]

Feudalism is usually useless IMO. If I am relying on LBs for defense then I probably botched diplomacy at some point. In general, if you are spending a lot of time defending (meaning more than just letting an enemy SoD move in to be slaughtered on the first turn of the war) then you are not on course to win. Until I am pushing for rifles I don't find Fuedalism very useful.
I sometimes tech engineering to unlock chemistry if attempting to grab steel from Lib. Otherwise, I usually trade for both of them. The AI always goes for Feudalism and is typically very willing to trade it.

 

[tycoonist]

a lot of people here never tried attacking against immortal-sized stacks apparently. once you have gone through that kind of pain you start to realise that attack isn't the best form of defense, longbows are.