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FFH 2 and Civ 5

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by paincave, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. KillerClowns

    KillerClowns Emperor

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    IIRC, way back in the early development process, there were plans for a multi-world map; when Armageddon happened, there would be an actual Hell, separate from Erebus, and it would break loose.
    If Civ V adds multi-world functionality, that would single-handedly justify FfH 3 for Civ V.
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    In which case, I'd be all over it. :lol:

    Otherwise... I think the only thing I'd be interested in would be to extend Erebus to the modern age. Orcs in choppas. :lol:
     
  3. CarnivalBizarre

    CarnivalBizarre Warlord

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    Civ 5 ain't worth crap without FFH2. I barley ever played Civ 4 without FFH2, after Civ2 I was kinda fed up with the vanilla civ setting.
     
  4. Niveras

    Niveras Prince

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    More DAKKA! Red makes it go fastah!
     
  5. Mailbox

    Mailbox King

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    I've always loved the idea of a fantasy world transitioning into an industrial or modern world. Elven riflemen charging across no man's land into dwarven machine guns. Ending the tech tree in a world war one like scenario would be the ultimate in dark fantasy. :)
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Plus, it leaves us room to bring in steampunk... And I love me some steampunk.

    As of now I think it's more likely I'll create my own setting, however, or do so with a team.
     
  7. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    I find it is often easier to go the other way around. Tech world morphs to Fantasy world. Having to kill off Magic to let tech replace it is just too heartbreaking. While slaughtering 95% of the world can be made a thing to be looked forward to if casting spells is on the other side of the trip :evil:
     
  8. lemonjelly

    lemonjelly Modding For Ethne

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    Fall From Heaven has influenced a lot of Civ IV modding, and when Civ V comes out, I would love to either try and port it or create a mod in a new setting that has loose ties to FFH, the thing with porting such a major mod is trying to live up to expectations.

    Anyway, Civ V is quite a long way away, and nobody can really promise anything until we know what modding tools we have. And, I can't promise anything until I learn to code the dll... xD

    Oh, Valk and Opera, this seems interesting, I need to go on Wave a lot more then xD
     
  9. snarko

    snarko DLLer

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    *signs*
    Never ending story...
    Ah....
    Never ending story...
    Ah....
    Never ending story...
    Ah....


    You start in the age of magic, or the age of technology. The age of magic continue into age of technology, which end with a (drastic) conversion into age of magic. Difficult to do but preferably make it very dynamic, so each age of magic or technology will (can) be different. Sometimes maybe magic never fades. Sometimes technology quickly gain supremacy, but just as quickly fade away. And so on.

    If someone makes a mod like that... I might even come back to playing games ;)
     
  10. Zomgmeister

    Zomgmeister Emerged Lurker

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    Maybe something more manageable?

    It's all about tech tree. Imagine something like this: at first, everyone studies basic technologies like hunting and agriculture. Then, just a bit later, there are one huge fork: Path of Technology vs. Path of Magic. Two completely different techpaths, though mirroring each other in some ways. And some key technologies from one path either disable various techs from another, or at least make it more costly to research them.

    Thus, you basically need to make a choice. Some dabbling in magic is possible for technophiles, at least through tech trade, but not so much. Either dragons or helicopters, but your muskets can still be enchanted, and your exalted champions may use chainswords.

    I'd played that.
     
  11. OJimiJam

    OJimiJam Warlord

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    the duel path thing reminds me very much of arcanum (which IIRC FFH uses inspiration/music from) if you like the idea look it up, it wasa brilliant if buggy CRPG.

    On topic: I love FFH, and would very much like to see a continued presence into civ 5, but if it cant doesnt happen remember we can always keep civ 4 installed. Also with all the ideas coding practice tossed around this forum (which i hope to attempt to learn over the summer) id imagine a very good dark fantasy mod can be created outside of Kaels FFH word.
     
  12. Zomgmeister

    Zomgmeister Emerged Lurker

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    I know about Arcanum, not bad game. But it is static, it is set in roughly beginning of 20 century, steampunk, zeppelins and all that. Civilization is dynamic — you can see axemen, trebuchets and nuclear submarines in one game.

    Think I will try to assemble small team and to mod something like that, with various paths, when Civ 5 will come online.

    On topic: agreed with conspiracy theories about FFH3 included in Civ 5. Firaxis' folks aren't stupid.
     
  13. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    The approach I would take is to introduce into Technologies the concept of "Obsolete Techs" such that once you develop far enough beyond a basic skill you begin to forget it (lose tech points toward it, lose the tech if it hits 0). It wouldn't be an issue since the tech itself would no longer grant you anything at all. But if you wanted, you could periodically dump some research back into the tech to re-acquire/maintain the basics (or maybe not offer that option, not sure...)

    Then it is a simple matter of having the tech tree set up to actually be 4 tech trees. Magical and Technological as the primary trees, each branching out from some rudimentary survival type technologies. The secondary trees are Steampunk (Magic influenced by simple tech) and MagiTech (Technology influenced by simple magic).

    Within the Tech and MagiTech trees, there exist some "triggers" (multiple possibilities) which can throw the world into the Ages of magic (Obsoletes all advanced techs, activates Magical Age lines), and the same within the Magical and Steampunk trees. Some triggers are catastrophic, others gradual and "natural".


    With a setup like this, if you are REALLY behind in one Age, that means in the next age you actually are AHEAD since fewer of your techs were lost in the conversion, and you have access to the alternative branch more fully. You can of course choose to share this knowledge if you REALLY want to, but you probably don't ;) But, delve too heavily into the alternative branch and you reach more catastrophic triggers quicker, so risk launching the world more quickly into the other Ages. Do it too fast and you'll find that EVERYONE has access to the alternative branch, except yourself, because you didn't bother with the "primary branch" enough to maintain the rudimentary level techs required in the new ages...


    Could have an interesting ebb and flow effect on Civs to keep the game competitive longer, instead of the typical tech race and slaughter.
     
  14. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I'm really liking that idea.....
     
  15. Zomgmeister

    Zomgmeister Emerged Lurker

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    Interesting. I will try to sketch some tech trees right now. We probably need another thread somewhere. Xienwolf, Valkrionn — you are local elders, go ahead and start something. Will contribute sketch in a few hours.
     
  16. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    Xienwolf, brilliant as always. :worship:
     
  17. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Its a good idea but its sounds hella random. Once you get past a certain number of civs you're going to be flipping ages every 20 turns or so and noones going to have control over anything. I can imagine a certain feeling of powerlessness overtaking some players as nothing they do turns out right.

    It might be safer to turn to employ established civilization mechanics - area control and resources. Certain resources, which for sake of familiarity we might as well call mana nodes, would exert an effect on the world around them. You can utilize them in one of three ways - Assign them to a single magic user, assign them to a magi-tech engineering guild, or desecrate them.

    The first enhances the strength of magic in the region of the mana node and your empire generally. Desecrating them does the opposite but allows technology to function more reliably as its difficult to have a functioning computer when lightning elementals can't count in binary. Magitech could be more flexible than both but require a delicate balancing act.

    I think it would be fun to explore what kind of societies would arise out of these three different responses to magic. In magic empires you would have a small number of immortal wizard lords, their immediate minions and a bunch of peasants who do what they're told. Magic rejecting societies might be xenophobic and distrustful of others but within themselves the citizens would be less oppressed as they're more equal. Both would hate magitech societies as the wizards regard putting magic in the hands of the common people as the greatest folly while any magic is too much for some.
     
  18. Zomgmeister

    Zomgmeister Emerged Lurker

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    I am using techtrees of Next War and Rise from Erebus as starting point. Next War, yup. Because I am mad.

    Don't want to design detailed techtree right away, because it's better to move small steps, gain agreement on everything and move on. So, here goes starting sketch.

    Spoiler :
    1. Gifted technologies that can't be researched, like Seafaring. Civ-defining uniques.

    2. Primitive starting technologies.
    I switched Hunting with Exploration, because even animals are able to hunt stuff, while codified exploration requires some purpose and sanity. It is harder to build a road than it is to trap some rabbit. Also, another group of food resources is available from start.

    Crafting
    Agriculture
    Fishing
    Hunting
    Ancient Chants

    Also I propose to enable building hunting camps on any type of wildlife. Hunt for pigs? Hell yes. Horse hamburgers? Why not. It works worse than pasturing them, but it is technologically cheaper. And worker can convert camp to pasture, which should be cheaper than building pasture for scratch.

    3. First advancements.
    The game is still in early exploration phase, and player probably is still not sure about future of his nation. Thus, no branching yet.

    Mining
    Masonry
    Calendar
    Animal Husbandry
    Fishing
    Roads (ex-Exploration)
    Education
    Mysticism

    4. Choices and consequences.
    Lots of technologies here. Basically this is glorified Bronze Age (of course, top slot is "Bronze Working"). Or "Classical Age", no matter. Ends at Iron.

    Now, Education leads to Reason, while Mysticism leads to Belief. These two technologies are mutually exclusive, which means that you can't have both in the same game. Maybe there could be a wonder (national or world) which allows you to convert Reason to Belief and vice-versa, changing global paradigm of your nation.

    If you got Reason, then you lose access to arcane magic (loose term, it probably requires to be rebuilt anyway), yet still have full access to divine magic in form of religion-based units. Basically whole branch of technologies like Sorcery, Arcane Lore et cetera goes red. Note that for most part these are end-game technologies. You still have possibility to train mages and shoot flame from their fingertips, but you will never have any ultra-epic magical awesomeness.

    If you got Belief, then you lose access to Scientific Method and all it's goodies. No Electricity (it is rude to command spirits of thunder like that, anyway), no Biology (bacteria? We don't need no stinking bacteria, pray Octopus Overlords and let the dark blood flow) and anything more "modern". Railroads and zeppelins are fine, portable automatical weapons (lighter than machinegun) are not.

    It is pretty obvious that we have to "buff" magical stuff to bring it in line with technological. Techs have battleships? No problem, we mages have spells which command the water (tsunami), can control Leviathan (who should be strongest naval unit ever) and, well, still have steam-propelled dreadnoughts. Airplanes? Portals. Giant humanoid mechs? Uh, demons. Spaceships? More portals. Nukes? Magical nukes, and more portals.

    Majority of religions are selectable somewhere here.

    5. Steps on your way.
    Beginning at Iron Age and continuing to Middle Ages. Most of technologies here are available for both paths, but Reason guys have less problems with researching stuff like Optics, Metal Casing and Machinery, while Believers got substantional bonuses to techs like Knowledge of Ether, Philosophy and Way of the Wicked.

    Yes, both "sides" have access to Fire Mages and Trebuchets. And this age ends somewhere near gunpowder: cheap and effective way to kill your adversaries.

    6. Renaissance of something.
    Up to industrial (or "magical", needs better name) revolution. Frigates, Cavalry and Liberalism. Mercantilism, Righteousness and Mithril Working. FFH techtree ends here, and we will have to continue it quite a bit.

    And here we again do have mutually exclusive technologies. Reason guys gain "Genius" and "Brilliance", Belief folks have "Balance" and "Transcendence". You can have only one.

    Genius brings us to the world of mundane (yet still awesome) technology. No mages. No unicorns. Still can have rainbows, but only as optical effect. Can build spaceships and giant robots, but lose all powers of magic. Divine-based stuff converts to usual mundane religions, without growing Ancient Forests. Your magical-based units gain "promotion" that have 20% chance to disband them each turn. Goodbye, cruel world (and enter the lazors!!1) Of course, you can't build magical-related stuff, it is obsolete.

    Brilliance — fringe dream of Nicola Tesla. Spellcasting? Of course. Totally scientific. You can't have Robotics and Fusion Power, no giant robots and space stations for you, but you can build titanic lightning-throwing towers and armored airships, how cool is that? In this world of brilliance, religion still weakens a bit after a while (probably in Industrial or Modern age), but it's okay, because now we can mass-produce plasma guns, freezing cannons and fireball grenades.

    Balance is similar to Brilliance, but more magical. Followers of Balance paradigm strive to live in utopian world, where magic serves all human needs, and technology helps where it is convienent. No dragons, they are too extreme. No "large stuff" at all, that's just not their style. But they do have most powerful archmages, who can destroy these vulgar machines with twitch of fingers. Instead of plasma guns, Balance provides us with lightsabers and Staves of Nuclear Power.

    Transcendence — oh boy. All hell (and heaven, and ether, and madness) broke loose here. For example, "let's all transform ourselves to magical beings who need no food whatsoever" as a world wonder. And even "let's build Pyramid of Retribution, which allows us to open portals anywhere in the world to spit raging fire of hell (or heaven) upon the heads of out enemies" as national wonder. I think that we need some drug-users to design this path of enlightenment. Dragons? Sure, we have a farm. Demons? Kids are learning how to summon and bind them at schools. Immortal Exalted Champions of Light? Sure thing, this is our answer to Navy Seals. They still carry swords and halberds, because they can. And we don't need no stinking technological stuff here. Any self-respecting mage will conjure something mysterious to do his bidding instead of building machine to do it. Lots of obsolete stuff, "tech" units gain a promotion to disband themselves (just as magical do in Genius' case), because no one cares anymore.

    7+. Industrial/magical age, Modern age, Future age.

    I think that most points already been said in "Renaissance" chapter. Religion weakens everywhere but in Balance civilizations, because both techs and transcendence weirdos are way too cynical to worship anyone, including themselves.

    "Technological" victory is probably different for anyone. Genius guys still build starship and send it away from this hellhole. Brilliance... I have no idea. Balanced prefer Altar of Luonnotar and/or Tower of Mastery, and Transcended just convert themselves to gods or something.

    You can see that civilizations lose a lot when they step on Transcendent or Genius paths, because Balance and Brilliance don't come with "auto-disband" promotions. Yup, it is hard, bite the bullet. Or don't, your choice. "Extreme" paths probably have more awesome stuff in the end to make these choices sought. Or not.

    Whew. Need new thread. And feedback. And contribution.

    Now, on shifting between branches due to chaotic occurrences: neat idea, but I firmly believe that it should be included as a feature which can be turned on and off. Because it seems to me that this epic world of technology and magic can be kinda awesome in its' own way, and inevitable shifting will bring too much chaos which can be undesirable in lots of cases.
     
  19. wilboman

    wilboman Hibernorse Frost Giant

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    Some of this reminds me of Rise of Legends. Hmmm... That was a fun game, actually.
     
  20. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    Sounds like that would be fun to implement, and design around but hella confusing to play...
     

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