Am I reading this right? This is a defense, right? I am reading a defense, here?
I mean I hope I'm not and am just misreading it, I do that often enough, but figured I'd look before I leapt.
FIFA World Cup - Qatar 2022
- Thread starter Henri Christophe
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I mean I hope I'm not and am just misreading it, I do that often enough, but figured I'd look before I leapt.
Defense implies there's something there I'm justifying. I'm not justifying anything because there is nothing there to justify, there being nothing unusual about a death rate among workers in Qatar entirely consistent with what you'd expect in a normal industrialised country.
Now if you are alleging that there is an abnormally high rate of death, then you have to produce that evidence or at least an estimate that supports the allegation. Given the tone of the thread I thought I'd get the figure that is most often-cited by outlets making that allegation. If the horrible headline number turns out to be expected death rate among young men in a normal wealthy country, ummm, then I would say that in at least for this allegation it's not supported.
I would argue that for someone making the claims, they'd need to provide supporting statistics. You evidently want to try and pre-emptively dismiss said criticism (the only person who mentioned any numbers was r16, and he didn't even go as high as 6,500), you provide the evidence.
For example: the headline number is excess deaths, in excess of any baseline. But here you are, comparing it to a baseline in another country that has an indigenous people (and notable history) to boot. It feels contrived.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Even if so, lots of other issues fit it..at least for Qatar.
I grabbed the number off a Guardian article and read it very carefully, 6,500 is total deaths among South Asian migrants from 2010 to 2020, not excess
That's the headline number, 6,750 is cited in a graph down the article, but I've been quite generous anyway trying to spin the data in the worst possible light for Qatar
Arwon and Egon mentioned deaths, REDY posted a video, I'm responding to criticisms, not pre-empting anything. If I had been the second person to post and mentioned deaths, that would look weird.
I compared the death rate to that of 15-24 yo males in an industrialised country with a 97% non-indigenous population. And as a Brit I would advise you not to use the "your kind have a history so you can't talk" card, here
This is fair. I just want people to boycott it for the right reasons, if they do.
If you read the article carefully you'd realise it isn't total deaths amongst all migrant workers in Qatar in that period, just those from 5 countries.
If you read my post carefully you'd realise I said total deaths among South Asian migrants
I believe there are more than 5 countries in SE Asia or are you saying those were the only countries in SE Asia migrant workers came from?
I can talk about what I want (especially as a Brit talking about the impact of colonialism, something I know a fair amount about), but you're missing the point. I highlighted the indigenous population because they will impact statistics, but as is often the case in colonial powers we often find ways to not count them. Much like how we have a rampant poverty problem here in the UK and the government simply redefined poverty to make it seem like it had gotten better. That's classism more than racism, but hopefully you get the idea.
But even that was a tangent. A highlight. The real problem is you attempting to combine an excess death rate with the base death rate of a specific demographic. This is why I wanted sources. Why you chose that specific Australian demographic, and so on. To see how much the data matched up beyond the initial mistake of comparing base with excess. Do you think Qatar, as a country, doesn't have mortality statistics? Did you bother to look them up, or are you too concerned that people might get upset that people have died working on a stadium financed by corruption and greed?
No I'm being very specific. South Asia in the English language usually is a specific geographical designation referring to India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka - those five countries. And normally Bhutan and sometimes Afghanistan is included within the definition of South Asia but the number of migrants from those countries in Qatar is negligible.
I'm trusting the Guardian's own reporting of the allegations that their figure is the total number of deaths among South Asian migrants in a ten year period - not abnormal deaths, not accidental deaths, just deaths from all sources, as per the article. From there I did the maths myself, obtaining the estimated number of South Asian migrants in Qatar (<1.8 million) dividing that by the number of deaths per year to get a death rate of ~40 per 100,000 for that population, rounding up all the estimates to paint Qatar in the worst possible light, because I'm not interested really in protecting the regime here.
I'm Australian, we've been complaining about Qatar since the bidding stage, so I know the arguments. Migrant workers skew young and healthy, so I took the youngest adult demographic in an industrialised country as a baseline because, again, I want to hold Qatar to a high standard.
I have not looked up Qatari mortality statistics because I trust Guardian reporting over the stats of an authoritarian regime incentivised to make their stats look good. But if you want to check the maths, as opposed to going by vibes, please do.
My apologies, I stand corrected.
Lexicus
Deity
Honestly never thought I would see a defense of the al Thani thugs posing as "woke" but here we are
r16
not deity
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defending Qatar is not defending the Arabs , or anyone oppressed . On a per capita basis , any Qatari has more blood on his hands than even a Saudi . An impressive achievement , that one . That they are so tough but like allow Pride Flags is also some achievement , too .
I'm not making any claims about the total numbers getting unnecessarily killed by working in Qatar, beyond that it's clearly not zero due to the conditions and lack of rights. Not being able to unionise is always a recipe for workplace injury and death.
For instance this study of cardiovascular deaths from heat stress among Nepali workers putting it at 200 of 570 deaths over a several year period being preventable with effective WHS. Would be a lot of stuff like that.
The ILO is very critical of the country's poor record keeping and classification with regards to even directly on-the-job injuries as opposed to slower workplace health problems, so it would be very difficult to get a full picture.
For instance this study of cardiovascular deaths from heat stress among Nepali workers putting it at 200 of 570 deaths over a several year period being preventable with effective WHS. Would be a lot of stuff like that.
The ILO is very critical of the country's poor record keeping and classification with regards to even directly on-the-job injuries as opposed to slower workplace health problems, so it would be very difficult to get a full picture.
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I would note though that comparing death rates between a population selected specifically to go do hard physical work in another country after being screened for medical issues... and an entire population even if the same age spread? That should obviously result in the former having a lower death rate, not the same one. They're not recruiting the people with serious illnesses to go work on construction sites.
Also the largest causes of death after suicide for men in that age bracket in western countries are things like road accidents, accidental positioning and assault which are all often alcohol related. You'd have to question the extent to which migrant labourers in a strict Muslim country are experiencing those deaths too.
Also the largest causes of death after suicide for men in that age bracket in western countries are things like road accidents, accidental positioning and assault which are all often alcohol related. You'd have to question the extent to which migrant labourers in a strict Muslim country are experiencing those deaths too.
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Paul in Saudi
Emperor
I am boycotting this world cup, as I boycotted the last Olympics. I expect the two actions will have the same impact.
Henri Christophe
L'empereur
Probably anti-Saud or anti-UAE - judging from Qatar being against them.
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