Figure out what Dido will speak?

[Louis XXIV]

Well, yeah, but leaving that aside, it's still problematic having her speak Berber.

 

[Pangur Bán]

There's not really a language she can speak that won't be problematic.

 

[Louis XXIV]

If it's Phoenician (especially Western Punic), it wouldn't be. That would be difficult but not impossible. They found someone to grunt in Akkadian.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

She was polyglotte, maybe they can use Klingon. lol

 

[Guandao]

If it's Phoenician (especially Western Punic), it wouldn't be. That would be difficult but not impossible. They found someone to grunt in Akkadian.

Hey, Nebuchadnezzar wasn't grunting. More like growling.

 

[Guandao]

Anyone noticed that Haile Selassie said his peace line.
In-game, leaders tend not to say their peace line after I've made peace with them.
For example, Montezuma just saying "Oulikikualika" instead of his much longer peace sentence and Darius just saying "Shapir" instead of "Nakrei eshua eh?".

 

[janboruta]

Anyone noticed that Haile Selassie said his peace line.
In-game, leaders tend not to say their peace line after I've made peace with them.
For example, Montezuma just saying "Oulikikualika" instead of his much longer peace sentence and Darius just saying "Shapir" instead of "Nakrei eshua eh?".

They say it when YOU propose a peace deal and don't click too fast, but instead let their "Let's hear it" speeches to complete. In most cases, when I sealed the peace treaty before a leader finished saying his "Let's hear it" line, he would just say a short confirmation, not the longer peace speech.

If they propose a peace deal, they don't use the peace speech. I also never heard them use the "Gloat" speech, which should be used when they are winning the war and you give them tribute. I hope it will be fixed for all leaders in G&K.

 

[Raneman]

Well, Dido probably didn't exist.

Knowing we're already dealing with a pretend figure, I propose we have Dido speak Klingon. No one will notice.

EDIT: I posted this before going to page 2, and it turns out someone else proposed Klingon in this exact page.

Can you hear us, Firaxis?

Your community, before even talking to each other, has agreed that Dido will speak Klingon.

 

[Nyanko]

Knowing we're already dealing with a pretend figure, I propose we have Dido speak Klingon. No one will notice.

EDIT: I posted this before going to page 2, and it turns out someone else proposed Klingon in this exact page.

Can you hear us, Firaxis?

Your community, before even talking to each other, has agreed that Dido will speak Klingon.

Dido isnt her traditional latinized name, its Elissa. However Dido's the name Virgil used so its the name the majority of people know her as.

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the historical personage of Elissa. While the storys told about here a probably false, there are several hints that a woman did found the city of Carthage. The record of the kings of Tyre mentions her brother at around the same date as the citys founding. Also is the fact that the Carthaginians remembered a female founder. Nowhere else (bar a certain Assyrian Queen) is a female put so far in the mythos of a ancient state; Furthermore, the Carthaginians did not worship her, or use her to differentiate themselves from other states, if she was just an invention of the Carthaginians, what would the point of it be?

Also, there is historical evidence found during the years which Carthage was founded, a pendant, dated to the 9th century found on the slopes of the Bysra which mentions Pymagilion, which lends further evidence that there may be a shred of truth in the founding story. Dexter Hoyos in his book "The Carthaginians" suggests that "The romantic and dramatic story of Elissa quite possibly rests on a basis of historical reality". I'd be hesitant to just dismiss it completely as fable.

 

[Gucumatz]

Dido isnt her traditional latinized name, its Elissa. However Dido's the name Virgil used so its the name the majority of people know her as.

I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the historical personage of Elissa. While the storys told about here a probably false, there are several hints that a woman did found the city of Carthage. The record of the kings of Tyre mentions her brother at around the same date as the citys founding. Also is the fact that the Carthaginians remembered a female founder. Nowhere else (bar a certain Assyrian Queen) is a female put so far in the mythos of a ancient state; Furthermore, the Carthaginians did not worship her, or use her to differentiate themselves from other states, if she was just an invention of the Carthaginians, what would the point of it be?

Also, there is historical evidence found during the years which Carthage was founded, a pendant, dated to the 9th century found on the slopes of the Bysra which mentions Pymagilion, which lends further evidence that there may be a shred of truth in the founding story. Dexter Hoyos in his book "The Carthaginians" suggests that "The romantic and dramatic story of Elissa quite possibly rests on a basis of historical reality". I'd be hesitant to just dismiss it completely as fable.

Interesting; can't say I know/knew too much about Carthage so interesting hearing tidbits like this.

 

[Guandao]

Okay, Washington declared war on me. Then he offered me peace with a lot of his gold and resources. And he said his peace line. So is that the only time the leaders say their peace line?

Also, I wonder what personality Dido will have, a flirtatious one like Catherine? Will she be in love with the player?

 

[janboruta]

Okay, Washington declared war on me. Then he offered me peace with a lot of his gold and resources. And he said his peace line. So is that the only time the leaders say their peace line?

Also, I wonder what personality Dido will have, a flirtatious one like Catherine? Will she be in love with the player?

I've never heard an AI leader talk his peace speech when he or she proposed, only when I proposed the peace treaty. That's strange, but maybe I was doing something wrong. It does seem it's a little bit random here.

If Catherine is in love with the player, then in my current Spanish game she's the abusive, unfaithful girlfriend. But well, maybe she shouldn't be in love with me as Isabella I think Dido should be charismatic/protective in Civ 4 terms (but also mercantile), and quite religious. I hope she won't have a love affair anywhere, one Catherine per map is enough

 

[Xen]

I wonder what Dido's theme was based on.
It's sounds more like Rome's theme than Middle Eastern music
Could it be entirely made up?

Carthage was extreamly Hellenized during the course of its existence - it should be regarded as a nation in the same camp as Rome, and Greece in so far as being a classical period Mediterranean state, rather than a traditional middle eastern one.

 

[Xen]

Regarding the language, I hope it's Punic, or at least Aramaic - that language being in the same family as Hebrew and Phoenician.

 

[Nyanko]

Carthage was extreamly Hellenized during the course of its existence - it should be regarded as a nation in the same camp as Rome, and Greece in so far as being a classical period Mediterranean state, rather than a traditional middle eastern one.

Hellenized in what way? They still worshiped Baal and Tanit and the crew

 

[Xen]

Hellenized in what way? They still worshiped Baal and Tanit and the crew

Religion is smallest component of Hellenization, and often the Greek religion never truly transcribes itself over a native one. Italy and Greece sync up so well because there were centuries of connections before Alexander. Roman often complain of Greek influence in the 2nd century BCE, but the reality is that Greek religion had been having an impact since (at LEAST) the 8th century BCE, and Hercules (as an example) had wide veneration among the Italians. Indeed, he was probably more widely venerated in Italy then in Greece! Judea, Persia, and Egypt however continued - though all three (and others) would find Intellectuals both native and Greek would seek to unify pantheons.
As it happens, the Phoencians (including the Carthaginians) recognized parallels with Greek religion from an early date, leading to syncretic style faith not so wholly integrated as Italian worship, but still with firm connections of equivalent deities.

Now, to the direct question of Punic Hellenization more directly.

Phoenicians as a whole actually Hellenized very readily - Phoenician culture had long been exerting an influence on the Greeks (the alphabet, for an example), and the connections (despite rivalries) brought by trade connection can forum strong cultural conduits that made cultural influence in the opposite direction easier. In materiel culture the Carthaginians -like the Italian cultures- have material evidence of trade links going back to the 8th century BCE with Greece, and are found in no less central a location than the Tophet.

The layout of the city itself was in a Hellenized orthagonal style, at least in the expanded sections where city planning was deemed desirable. Material architecture was in the same school of design as can be found in Greece and Italy, though the Carthaginians are in some ways more willing to play with other cultures designs - architecture is not a strong point of uniqueness for them, as much of it (that is known) is unambitious and derivative (save for the port facilities - which were highly unique). These features are something of a physical manifestation of the single more important element - political culture.

It's in politics that Carthage represents a significant step towards the Greco-Roman ideal of a citizen body that takes part in governance, and the constitution of Carthage was apparently such to render it comparable to Sparta and Crete, making it some level of Oligarchy. This may have been a native development from the Carthaginians, it may have been an idea that was a culture import. In either case it served as a cementing feature of daily life that helps distinguish Carthage as a state with parallels and connections with Greece and Italy, to the extent that all three can be seen as individualized, culturally relative takes on many of the same basic ideas and traits. We know this association as the term 'Hellenism' because these traits often do seem to flourish first -or are recorded first, if not actually initiated- in Greece, and find their spread through them to new areas where if in no other way, the material culture of Greece finds root, and Greek becomes a merchant language, if nothing more (and it often became a sign of education and nobility; something that is virtually assured among the Carthaginians, giving the Greek connections.)

Between the cultural-political similarities and influences, and the material culture of more obvious imports and related aesthetics, the conclusion of Hellenization is a strong one.

If you have access to JSTOR, I can recommend some articles.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Regarding the language, I hope it's Punic, or at least Aramaic - that language being in the same family as Hebrew and Phoenician.

Arabic is technically in the same family as well.

BTW, Carthage was the perfect mix of Phoenician and Greek, imo. They're really a good mix of both. I would say classical Mediterranean Greek architecture but possibly a different music, for example.

 

[Nyanko]

If you have access to JSTOR, I can recommend some articles.

Suggest away, I think my college's library has a sub to JSTOR (though I am doing a business degree >_<)

 

[Dragonflow]

Raising this thread from the grave, because we finally have a sample of dialogue from Dido.

http://www.civilization5.com/godsandkings/us/civilizations/car.php

Any ideas on what she is speaking?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm discussing it in the language thread in the other forum. It might very well be Phoneician (Example). It's certainly a Semitic language similar to Hebrew. The choppiness suggests Phoenician.