Final Fixes Reborn

[PPQ_Purple]

PPQ_Purple, you are full of good ideas

I agree for craftsmen; they are really interesting. However, IMO using only GE-founding is a bit harsh

Harsh? Yes and no. Every civ should be able to grab at least one of the masters buildings easily enough. It's just one GP. Things only become harsh if you are going for the whole set or you are bent on an altar or cultural victory and thus need the GP's elsewhere.

But than that's something I feel is justified difficulty that really should not be removed but simply given an extra reward to make you feel good about overcoming it. Which is why I suggested tying the best guild in the game (the one that gives you loads of hammers) to the final masters building.

For guilds, your ideas are nice. However, IMO one of the issues is that guilds favorise huge empires (access to many examples of each ressources) and shines a lot for starting new cities.... which is strange.

How so? Is it not to be expected that great empires with loads of resources would be better at expanding outward and establishing new cities than lesser ones? To me it seems only logical really. After all they have far more resources to invest into getting the place off the ground quickly.

Now you could question if the snowball effect this produces is beneficial or not from a gameplay perspective. But lore vise it makes sense to me.

what about having guilds being buildable ? or, maybe, having the journeymen not open the "guild" but opening a "guildshop"... with a few benefits related to the guild, but getting the actual guild in the city needs some investement, allowed only when the guildshop is present in city ? (so no new city gaining +15 /turn only using a stonemason journeyman !)

Speaking like that maybe the way to go would be to forgo manual expansion altogether. Have each guild you found automatically spread to all of your cities but than have the effects be capped based on the buildings those cities have. Like say capping the + /turn until you build a forge or +/turn until you build a theater. This would make it so that new cities get a free boost but at the same time make large well established cities get far more benefit from a guild than small new ones.

Questions of course being how the AI would deal with that and how to balance it.

or having guilds present in city increase maintenance or reduce a number of gold/hammers...etc
(stonemason : consume stone/marble ; -0.5gold per stone/marble/earth mana; -0.5commerce per iron/copper ; +1 prod per stone/marble/earth mana/iron / copper) : in essence, it makes your city earning much hammers, but losing gold/commerce due to guild cost : useful to help big production cities, or some focused new cities, but not useful to spam everywhere.)

Personally I am not a big fan of direct tradeoff mechanics like that. It's just my personal taste and not objective fact. But personally I just don't really like super specializing cities. And what you suggest has the potential to go off the rails really quickly and produce stuff like production centers that literally run in the red in every other field.

 

[black_imperator]

14.11

Ok i'm gonna see what i can do, no guarantee

I agree on the lack of integrated lore, but I do think the Guild mechanism is very powerful and useful in the game. Would be happy to brainstorm on how to adjust it and make it more meaningful.

Do you want the reproducible interface breaking save?

i'll take the save yes

I would like to say something about units giving production points from their sacrifice (slaves, kilmorph). For me this is a quality of life in the end game, when you want to develop rapidly a city. So I would advocate to allow the siege workshop to grant the possibility to build the supplies unit, that would have a cost and be able to be sacrificed for half its worth in production. Because not all nations can have slaves or be Kilmorph. As I say, this is a quality of life, not something unbalancing the game.

I'll think about it

seeing your desperate call for a tie-breaker... I had to this

Thanks for that ^^

I'm looking to get back into FFH. Is the current revision 300 download pretty stable? If not, what would be the most stable version for me to play?

It should be pretty stable, though some issues come up now and then on some configs. We're woking on tracking them down.

Would if be feasible and possible that, if you manage to build a road on a peak (you capture a Dwarf worker or you are dwarf), then the road can be used by non-mountaineering units? I believe that would be a nice little touch.

I need to see if it can be done easily.

Hi,
I'm trying to alter the sound produced by the bounty hunter promotion when it triggers, but I see no such definition field in the xml record of the promotion, only the sound when acquiring it. Somebody can help?

That's in DLL, it's the A2DS_PILLAGE sound

Got 2 bugs to report. Both cause CTD:s. First one seems to occur whenever I play scions. The game CTD:s whenever I move a scion unit through haunted lands.
Second bug concerns the unit "Landing party". This time it CTD:s if a landing party moves between sea and land. Will look into this a bit more and see if it happens with any other scenario.

What version are you using ?



About the guilds and master buildings, i'll do a post later today outlining some plans so that we can discuss on a common basis going forward. After that, the dev diary on units will come up.

 

[TheIO]

Setup a game on Erebus Continent, Huge, 18 civs, had Flavor Start active; Illians spawned in the jungle and both the Malakim and Scions spawned in the tundra. I think there might be a problem with the civ locating there.

Also, the Ljosalfar AI need to be taught how to garrison - because they start with 2 scouts and no warrior, they'll leave their capital ungarrisoned at the beginning, so any wandering barb or unfortunate event can wipe them 18 turns in.

 

[black_imperator]

who are the 15 others and where are they placed, is there an area where the civs could have been placed instead ?

for the Ljos, that is an issue, but apart from giving the city defense AI to all scouts (since they don't have a UU), or giving them a warrior, i'm not seeing an easy way out. (I assume their early moves are to build a warrior, if it's not then it's even more of an issue, though that part is easier to fix)

 

[RCMPSHIELD]

I like Ashes of Erebus I just started. Is there Revolutions in this mod or a way for them?

 

[black_imperator]

No Revolutions yet, though there's a plan to add a version of it at some point

 

[Nor'easter]

For the Ljosalfar, seems to me that giving them a starting warrior makes the most sense, since I assume that the AI is programmed to send Scouts out to explore rather than garrison a city.

As for units, I remember back in the RifE days when Valkrionn started a couple of threads about his intended Religion and Alignment changes, he said something about adding new Alignment-specific units along the Lawful/Chaotic axis instead of only on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis. (You probably remember that.) So, e.g., Lawful Good would have a different mix of units available to it than Neutral Good and Chaotic Good would, etc. Just wondering if that's part of your plans.

 

[black_imperator]

Well, that's teasing the unit dev diary that's coming in a few hours , but yeah, the objective is to get one unit per alignment (as we have currently) and one per ethical alignment. I'm taking suggestions on certain of those ^^

 

[Vorpal+5]

The AIs is spamming light of lugus (several AIs, every turn, sometime several for the same AIs). Should I increase the weight or reduce it? Because I reduced it from 200 to 50 and I see no perceptible effects...

 

[black_imperator]

the AI is a bit special when it comes to building stuff. It goes through a list of of conditions and chooses to construct an object in the first class that works.

I assume the AI gets to the project class too easily and chooses one of the rare ones it has access to. (the AI for chosing that class is 2400 lines long, so it may take a while to see why that is)

Though i can probably at least add something that stops them from building it based on remaining time of the effect.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

No Revolutions yet, though there's a plan to add a version of it at some point

Since it's been brought up why do people like the system? Personally I dislike it with fervor. It just makes the game too hard and not in a fun and balanced way.

 

[black_imperator]

Well, i'm fond of the idea, but not really of the implementations i've seen which are a bit too unbalanced. The general idea that your empire goes unstable when your actions go too much against its social structure feels very interesting to me. Other than the general unbalance, the issue i have with a basic ffh port is that it doesn't take into account the fact that Bannor would revolt for different reasons than Elohim, Calabim or Clan. Added with the emergent leader system, it could make something very interesting :

"You, leader of the Bannor, have been allowing heretical religions to take hold in your cities. As such, a portion of your populace has started to vehemently request your replacement. At their head, the priest Gaius Octavius".

 

[TheIO]

Bug time.

I cannot get to Turn 370. I've been trying for the past half an hour, complete with having to negotiate bugged saves (I had to roll back 16 years in one instance) and yet it simply will not load Turn 370; every time, it CTDs. Can anybody help me work out what the problem is?

I've attached saves for each of Turns 365-9; hopefully one of them will load.

EDIT: I think I have a vague idea. The game doesn't CTD until after it's handled my automatics, because I can see Celo's pop getting shifted just before it crashes. I checked using WorldBuilder and the one city that's completing any production is the Mekaran capital, finishing the Brewing House, when they're led by Important leader Iram Damarr. Does finishing the Brewing House trigger a trait gain for Important leaders? If so, then clearly the AI can't handle it, because it's causing the game to crash.

 

[Nor'easter]

Well, that's teasing the unit dev diary that's coming in a few hours , but yeah, the objective is to get one unit per alignment (as we have currently) and one per ethical alignment. I'm taking suggestions on certain of those ^^

Well, I think all I'd be able to suggest would be creatures from my old AD&D books (Monster Manual, Fiend Folio Tome, and Monster Manual II), so not very creative, I'm afraid.

 

[Vorpal+5]

Fiend Folio, yes!

 

[black_imperator]

So let's talk about guilds.

As i mentioned earlier, what bothers me most about the current guilds is the large lore blandness of them, added to the fact that they all work basically the same (which doesn't help with the blandness).
Lorewise, if we look at the old ones from ffh, what we had was :


The Guild of Hammers
Aerons Bounty
The Cult of the Dragon
The Brotherhood of Wardens
The Guild of the Nine
The Ratcatchers Guild
The Circle of Gaelan

That's one craftsmen guild, two underworld guilds,
two/three cults (without checking, i don't remember if the Brotherhood of Wardens had a religious part),
two/three Unitline guilds,...


That's variety, and while that feels interesting, most does not feel suited to the base corporation mechanics.

In particular, it does not make sense that they compete over resources.

Instead, we will introduce guild classes and two guilds sharing the same class (or belonging to opposite classes) will compete when in the same city.
Examples of classes would be for example Underworld guilds, or Cults.
At this point, i'm tempted to allow guilds to be part of several classes.

Next is actual mechanics :
We want the guilds to be a trade-off,
we want them to have a local effect,
we want them to offer an incentive to spread them in other civilizations,

Let us take an example with one of the cults i'd like to add : The Emrys
For those who do not know, here is a sum up of the Emrys :

The Emrys, a cult devoted to Ceridwen, is the most prominent faith among the Sheaim. It was also the official state religion of all human realms before Kylorin repented and plunged Patria into civil war. This faith was never even remotely popular with the common man, but is rather tempting to sorcerers and men of power who desire even more power. Its influence beyond the Sheaim borders is now extremely limited, and it cannot do much on the world stage except recruit those of arcane talent to the Sheaim cause.
Classes : Cult, Evil, Arcane
Founding : If the Sheaim are in game, it is founded by them (either from start or after knowledge of the ether
Otherwise, the most acceptable civ will found them after some time ( Alignment, along with arcane use and Bair of Lacuna control will be counted)

Base Effect : When spread into a city, an Emrys Shrine (Name to be Changed) is set up.
This gives the Emrys promotion to arcane units built in the city, giving some arcane bonuses(magical res, unique spells) to the units. It will also make your alignment tick toward Chaotic Evil.
In addition, the presence of the Emrys Shrine in a city will cause some crimes to appear in the city at set crime levels, with very nasty effects ( if you look at the Lore, they're not nice people).
Finally, there's a chance, based on AC, that your newly built unit will join the owner of the Emrys Headquarters instead of yours. Some of them may also leave you if you go to war with the owner of the headquarters.

Local Effect : The newly built units may gain free promotions based on the local mana ( by this i mean workable tiles)

Global effect : The newly built units may gain free promotions based on the most use manas in civs that have an Emrys shrine.

Spread : They will spread on their own in cities with arcane buildings, through trading routes, you can also use an Emrys mage to spread it to a city ( your own or one you can access through open borders).

Remove : Assuming you are not the current headquarter owner, you can remove the Emrys from a city through a city spell. It may not happen quietly though.

Headquarters change: If the current Founder civ gets less aligned with the objectives of the Emrys, they may decide to change the headquarters to a more suitable civ.




That's for the basics, in addition, you'll get one or two additional buildings, including one working like a "Master Arcanist", a few spells and maybe a late-game unit.

I'm also considering some kind of "rank" of the national chapters of the guild. So the one with the Headquarters would get the most bonuses, and then a civ or two with secondary headquarters could get some of the headquarters bonuses.



Ok, that's a good example of what i'm planning. I'm not fully decided yet on what will exactly be the final guild list, it will depend on what interesting ideas i can come up with. I do want to link a bit more the Master buildings to the guilds too. They share themes in my opinion so it would make sense to link the mechanics.

 

[black_imperator]

And now the Unit Dev diary :

Welcome to the Ashes of Erebus Dev Diaries. Today, we'll be talking about Units.
If you have been around since the beginning of FFH, you might remember that there were many more units early on.
Kael removed a certain number of them early on, arguing that there were not enough mechanics to differentiate them and
make it interesting, and to simplify the mod. At some point during Rise from Erebus, the team felt we had reached a point
where we could do a bit more with the units, which is something i agree with.
I do not want to add too much though and make the game feel bloated, so each addition must be something that is seriously thought about.

The first thing is the melee line. At the moment, it is the default line every civilization will go for.
Even without ranged strength or increased movement, it is still the stronger unitline both offensively and defensively for "classical" warfare.

I intend to fix that by breaking the line in two. The current one will be come the offensive melee line, losing a fair bit of defensive strength, while a new Polearm line will become the defensive melee line
with decreased offensive strength and bonus in cities and against cavalry. The split will happen after the Warrior.
The Polearm line will also have access to the "Law and Order" Promotion line, decreasing Crime in cities.

The second thing is the Assassin and Shadow belonging to the Recon line when they have a vastly different use and capabilities.
They will get their own Rogue unitline along with an earlier unit in it. They'll also get a set of crime-increasing and sabotaging Promotions enabling them to hit enemy cities without necessarily attacking directly. (Think of the Muris Goblin Promotion)
This unitline will split from the Recon after the Scout.
A possibility is to make this unitline crime-dependant though i'm not decided on this yet.

The third major point which i'll just tease here because it's important enough to warrant its own dev diary is that the Druid stops becoming the Neutral Tier 4 unit to become the Tier 4 unit of the new Shaman unitline for civs lacking regular magic (Doviello, Khazad, Clan,...)

There are some other minor things, like both cavalry and horse archery lines getting an additional units for the lines to be properly organized, or the Berserker becoming the Chaotic Tier 4 unit.


Here's a summary of the unit lines as i envision them (note that the names aren't definitive, especially the Dragoon one which i don't really like):


Melee : Basic offensive unit :

Warrior -> Axeman -> Champion -> Immortal


Polearm : Defensive Melee Unit :

Warrior -> Spearman -> Pikeman -> Phalanx


Archery: basic ranged line, weak in melee

Warrior -> Archer -> Longbowman -> Marksman


Ranged Infantry : weaker range but better in melee, collateral

Warrior -> Archer -> Crossbowman -> Arquebus


Recon : for scouting and animal killing

Scout -> Hunter -> Ranger -> Beastmaster


Rogue : good for gathering info on enemy, killing off weak units in cities

Scout -> Thief -> Assassin -> Shadow


Mounted : fast and offensive, no def bonuses

Horseman -> Lancer -> Knight


Mounted Archers

Horseman -> Horse Archer -> Dragoon


Arcane :

Adept -> Mage -> Archmage


Shaman : Alt line for civs with different magic access

Shaman -> Seer -> Druid




Of course, several civs will get UUs for the new lines, either by repurposing some UUs or adding new ones.
The Bannor Polearm line will be a FlagBearer line, while the Sheaim will get brand new units for this line for example.


Note that there is still some design work to be done to answer a few questions :

-What to do with Siege Weapons? Do we keep the current tier 2 -> tier 4 of catapults upgrading to cannons or do we add a new unit in between ?
-What to do with Chariots ? Chariots, while interesting, don't have a clear role to play at the moment, compared to the classic cavalry. Are they cut and repurposed as cavalry UU for certain civs? are they a tier 1 cavalry unit ? I don't have an answer at this point.
-What about the missing alignments ? Good, Evil and Chaotic have their Tier 4 units, what about Lawful, Neutral and EthicNeutral ?
-A similar rework would be needed for Naval Units but i haven't worked on it yet
-Do the new unitlines warrant new buildings or not ? ( yes for Rogue, not sure for Polearm)

The Dev Diary will be updated when those questions are answered.

In conclusion, this is a long term project that is very dependant on art people for its success. It has an advantage though since its components are separate enough that i could release it in phases. (The melee line, the Rogue line, the additional cavalry units ,...)


At the end of every dev diary, i'll give you a todo list of the mechanic and the various parts needed to make it work, along with how you can help :

Work needed :
This is less work heavy than it appears to be as Unitcombats are not that used in the DLL. In particular, they are not key to AI which is using UnitAI instead. The brunt of the work is xml to set up the new units and tweak the old one and art for the new units.

DLL, python, XML Set up the new unitcombats ( Easy,Quick)
XML Create and Balance the new units (Easy, Long)
DLL tweak AI to handle sabotage promotions better (Medium, Medium)
Art Create new art for the new units ( ???, Long)


You can find former dev diaries and the categories you can vote for at this link : https://docs.google.com/document/d/14P90zYvnsodp-PLfRDmAehvX--nuhGV6yhKZMUxy9NI/edit The votes are reset starting now ^^

 

[Bahmo]

I want to report that I started another game, this time as Duin. It crashed, too, and much earlier than my Lanun game did.

 

[TheIO]

So I setup a new game. Same conditions as previously, but only 17 civs, Historical leaders only.

I now cannot get to Turn 194. The game crashes almost immediately after I End Turn. It's a similar level of "I can't play this fudging game" to before, except without the obvious cause.

Is there any way to tell which particular process is causing the game to crash?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

In terms of tier 4 units for alignments could you do a quick summary of the units already in the game (paladin, eidolon, berserker) from your personal viewpoint. How do you see them in terms of lore and capabilities and where do you plan to develop them. That way we can have a baseline to work from when making thematic suggestions for the missing ones.