First Impressions

[AlpsStranger]

A city can conceptually have a dock, and mechanically ships can always move in or out of cities. A unit that takes a barb camp moves onto its tile, so you'd have to end up with your melee ship on a land tile, somewhere it couldn't otherwise go.

Maybe ships should be able to disembark into little light melee crews?

 

[nokmirt]

I had fun, as usual, despite not taking advantage of any real G&K changes (combat ended up about the same but thought that my Swords/Cats lasted too long). I totally ignored diplomacy, as usual, but worked on maintaining two religion city-states (that was fun to do). Next time, I'll go back up to Immortal and bring in some of the new Civs. I want to go up against the Huns and Austria.

So, is GnK what you expected for the most part? Do you feel it is more challenging, or does it go towards more of a sandbox feel to you?

As for me. In the late game once I got the upper hand, it almost feels to me like I am cheating. I have tons of gold. Although, happiness is an issue, but only because I am building courthouses in annexed cities. Once that's done, happiness will not be an issue. I'm playing on king that could be why. I'll be moving back up to emperor next game.

 

[Buccaneer]

So, is GnK what you expected for the most part? Do you feel it is more challenging, or does it go towards more of a sandbox feel to you?

As for me. In the late game once I got the upper hand, it almost feels to me like I am cheating. I have tons of gold. Although, happiness is an issue, but only because I am building courthouses in annexed cities. Once that's done, happiness will not be an issue. I'm playing on king that could be why. I'll be moving back up to emperor next game.

You asked two questions that were really three. First, yes, almost exactly as expected:
1. It plays very similar to vanilla
2. Religion has minor bonuses, on par with some weaker SP
3. Religion is what you want to make out of it - it can have no bearing on winning/losing
4. All of the new civs, units, buildings and tech tree changes are the true value of expansion packs - they did good on those
5. Espionage was left off and will remain off

Second, I found that my Emperor game was easier than other Emperor games I had. I had no early UU and just went with your basic Swords/Catapults and not only did they remain strong longer, but they went up against weaker units and cities. That's what you would expect at Prince/King.

Third, that doesn't make it a sandbox where one doesn't play to win but to simply build. I cannot fathom that but no, the game still have the same victory conditions (diplomacy changed a bit) and the AI does try to beat you, to some extent, as they should. But I guess I have to go back up to Immortal and even Deity to have some good competition, or change some setup settings, I don't know.

 

[nokmirt]

You asked two questions that were really three. First, yes, almost exactly as expected:
1. It plays very similar to vanilla
2. Religion has minor bonuses, on par with some weaker SP
3. Religion is what you want to make out of it - it can have no bearing on winning/losing
4. All of the new civs, units, buildings and tech tree changes are the true value of expansion packs - they did good on those
5. Espionage was left off and will remain off

Second, I found that my Emperor game was easier than other Emperor games I had. I had no early UU and just went with your basic Swords/Catapults and not only did they remain strong longer, but they went up against weaker units and cities. That's what you would expect at Prince/King.

Third, that doesn't make it a sandbox where one doesn't play to win but to simply build. I cannot fathom that but no, the game still have the same victory conditions (diplomacy changed a bit) and the AI does try to beat you, to some extent, as they should. But I guess I have to go back up to Immortal and even Deity to have some good competition, or change some setup settings, I don't know.

Well said Buccaneer, except I use espionage. Espionage needs to expand, spies need to have more missions. If a spy dies it should be replaced. I feel the rank of spies should go to master spy. To me it is seriously lacking, what are these lazy spies? These guys are certainly not 007, or anything close to it. Religion is a nice addition the game though, and quite nicely done.

Sorry for going on about espionage, it's just that they should have added it with the kind of zeal they used for religion. BTW thanks for teaching me a thing, or two, or three about the game. For instance, the ignore diplomacy. That has really helped my play in a big way.

 

[Calouste]

Well said Buccaneer, except I use espionage. Espionage needs to expand, spies need to have more missions. If a spy dies it should be replaced. I feel the rank of spies should go to master spy. To me it is seriously lacking, what are these lazy spies? These guys are certainly not 007, or anything close to it. Religion is a nice addition the game though, and quite nicely done.

Sorry for going on about espionage, it's just that they should have added it with the kind of zeal they used for religion. BTW thanks for teaching me a thing, or two, or three about the game. For instance, the ignore diplomacy. That has really helped my play in a big way.

It does, it just take a number of turns.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well said Buccaneer, except I use espionage. Espionage needs to expand, spies need to have more missions. If a spy dies it should be replaced. I feel the rank of spies should go to master spy. To me it is seriously lacking, what are these lazy spies? These guys are certainly not 007, or anything close to it. Religion is a nice addition the game though, and quite nicely done.

Sorry for going on about espionage, it's just that they should have added it with the kind of zeal they used for religion. BTW thanks for teaching me a thing, or two, or three about the game. For instance, the ignore diplomacy. That has really helped my play in a big way.

For my part, nokmirt, I'd rather they bring in a full espionage system in bits & pieces-& get it working seamlessly-rather than bring it all in as one big chunk, only to have the whole thing crash & burn . When Civ5 came out, I always had the belief that they left the way open to bring back religion & espionage-& I was correct. Now, I equally believe that they have left the way open to bring back an extended espionage system down the track-most likely as DLC .

Aussie.

 

[smallfish]

I'd rather they bring back the ole suitcase nukes (totally ignores Bomb Shelters) and Communism would prevent you from being spied upon (all AI civs will choose Freedom or Autocracy)

 

[PhilBowles]

Well said Buccaneer, except I use espionage. Espionage needs to expand, spies need to have more missions. If a spy dies it should be replaced. I feel the rank of spies should go to master spy. To me it is seriously lacking, what are these lazy spies? These guys are certainly not 007, or anything close to it. Religion is a nice addition the game though, and quite nicely done.

Sorry for going on about espionage, it's just that they should have added it with the kind of zeal they used for religion. BTW thanks for teaching me a thing, or two, or three about the game. For instance, the ignore diplomacy. That has really helped my play in a big way.

I like espionage - it plays distinctively, and feels like an actually separate feature of the game rather than just a unit with special abilities. I agree it needs more options, particularly sabotage production (yes, I now know Bismarck will complete the final spaceship component next turn. And I can do what precisely with that info?), although the existing ones are good. Amendments I'd like to see:

- Mission success/failure along the lines of older games or Total War - so failure doesn't necessarily mean the spy dies. It seems the chances of success are overinflated to compensate for the severity of losing a promoted spy - allow the spy a chance to get away, and mission success rates could be reduced, with the additional effect that promotion becomes more important for succeeding. Especially notable success could lead to the enemy not being able to identify which civ carried out the espionage.

- A cooldown time on coups, as there is for rigging elections (it's only in the US that an election goes on for 15 years anyway...)

- The ability to place spies in allied city-states to perform counterintelligence.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

- Mission success/failure along the lines of older games or Total War - so failure doesn't necessarily mean the spy dies. It seems the chances of success are overinflated to compensate for the severity of losing a promoted spy - allow the spy a chance to get away, and mission success rates could be reduced, with the additional effect that promotion becomes more important for succeeding. Especially notable success could lead to the enemy not being able to identify which civ carried out the espionage.

- A cooldown time on coups, as there is for rigging elections (it's only in the US that an election goes on for 15 years anyway...)

- The ability to place spies in allied city-states to perform counterintelligence.

Good ideas-I especially like the first one-maybe if your spy isn't killed, then they're out of action for X turns (due to imprisonment or recuperation time), but this should only apply for Agents & Special Agents-with the escape chance improving for Special Agents.

Aussie.

 

[nokmirt]

It does, it just take a number of turns.

I know, but wouldn't your country have a system of training for special ops people? So they can be replaced. Mine would. Have you ever seen Spies Like Us? We should be able to send in decoy spies as well. I am kidding, but I believe spies should be replaced right away. The security of your country is at stake.

I like espionage - it plays distinctively, and feels like an actually separate feature of the game rather than just a unit with special abilities. I agree it needs more options, particularly sabotage production (yes, I now know Bismarck will complete the final spaceship component next turn. And I can do what precisely with that info?), although the existing ones are good. Amendments I'd like to see:

- Mission success/failure along the lines of older games or Total War - so failure doesn't necessarily mean the spy dies. It seems the chances of success are overinflated to compensate for the severity of losing a promoted spy - allow the spy a chance to get away, and mission success rates could be reduced, with the additional effect that promotion becomes more important for succeeding. Especially notable success could lead to the enemy not being able to identify which civ carried out the espionage.

- A cooldown time on coups, as there is for rigging elections (it's only in the US that an election goes on for 15 years anyway...)

- The ability to place spies in allied city-states to perform counterintelligence.

I agree with these ideas. I love the spies in total war and shogun. They should have a chance to be unsuccessful, yet escape without a trace. Or then again, complete their mission, but get killed or caught. Then what would be interesting, is if you could send another spy to try to rescue the captured one. Someone with a certain set of skills, like Liam Neeson. Spies could kidnap important people for ransom from other civs. Again we could send in Liam Neeson for a rescue operation...

"I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you."

The spy could stage a murder and be sure his enemy is arrested with the incriminating evidence, linking that person to the crime. This could be used as a way to seperate Austria from a CS. The handsome Austrian prince, murders the CS's beautiful princess. The smoking gun he is caught with after he wakes from a comfortable anesthetic induced sleep, pretty much, is hard to explain away. Now the CS believes that Austria is involved in an elaborate plot, to undermine their sovereignty over the land. This of course is very far from the truth, as the spy from France laughs his way back to Paris, after making the Austrians look like fools.

This is all about spying, schemes, and intrigue, all they have to do is use their imagination, and find what works within the game. My ideas are just examples of some things they could do, in some similar context. I guess what it comes down too, is making espionage more interesting. Rigging CS elections is ok, but it reminds me of Old California or something. Call Zorro! Sure I feel they should have it, but it to me should not be a top tier spy ability. It is more of a job for thugs or brownshirts, organized by some political big mouth, something like that. Spies are meant to be intelligent, not dumb brutes. They certainly are not political organizers. Though they could be used for such unregarding menial work. To me though, that is a waste of material, it also is not logical.

Actually, I kind of like this post it makes me laugh!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

BTW, had another fun experience last night. I was desperate to gain a bit of influence with Antwerp, a local Mercantile Civ. So they asked me to bully Sydney. Well I did so, but failed to realize that Theodora had previously pledged to protect said City-State. So the very next turn, I'm getting warned to leave Sydney alone, or face the consequences. Up until then we'd been on *very* friendly relations, but said friendship is currently holding on by a thread. It was pretty cool .

Aussie.

 

[Bezhukov]

CivV is finally here.

Had the best game I've had since CivIII in my second play (and I loved CivIV, but it was hard to come from ahead), and the first was fun if silly (Caesar + Desert hills + Petra).

Bravo!

 

[gingerbill]

best DLc or data disk i have ever bought , so much new stuff , i'm very happy.

 

[blackcatatonic]

I'm taking a break from my two all-girl Boudicca games (Prince is easy but fairly boring, King I'm enjoying but so far behind it's not even funny) and taking Theodora out for a spin. I think I've mostly avoided making the same mistakes I did in my first attempt at post-G&K King, I'm running a very close second in Science and I've managed to grab some good wonders. I very much enjoyed getting my pick of the religious beliefs so I managed to found a good all-round religion which I have gleefully shoved down the throats of the Carthaginians and most of the local City-States. The UUs are a bit disappointing. The Dromon is great fun - whee! burn the barbarians! - but I can't help wishing the Cataphract was a Knight replacement. As soon as the AI gets Pikemen, they're toast.

Sharing a continent with Pachacuti, who is monstering away as per usual, Dido, who has built two cities and a massive army as per usual, and Sweden, who I had never seen before, and whose cities now belong to the Inca with the exception of Stockholm, which is mine. Shame he didn't take to me, I was looking forward to hitching a free ride to extra GP production from his UA. Oh well.

Just on the cusp of the Modern Era now, and it looks like I'm well-placed to go for a Science victory, although Pacha is a bit of a concern. We're friends for now, but he caught my spy snitching on him and he thinks I'm expanding too aggressively (care to take a look in the mirror mate?), so it might not last long. I can take him if he comes for me, but he has *ALL* the defensive wonders and Faith Healers, so there's no way I'm going after him.

A thought on espionage - tech stealing seems to be ridiculously easy. Yes, it takes a long time, but I've had techs stolen from Adrianople three times now, despite building a Constabulary and posting my own Spy in there. On none of the three occasions did I get to find out who it was, although it's probably either Pachacuti or Carthage. Has anyone else been experiencing this, or have I just been unlucky?

 

[Horizons]

I was sceptical and almost wasn't going to buy it until I got drunk one night and pre-purchased it in a state of inebriated compulsion.

However I am really pleased by what they've done with combat and the addition of lots of new units. Naval combat, melee ships, ships taking cities, and great admirals is a really nice addition, even if I haven't had a chance to see much naval combat or inter-continental invasions yet. As a warmonger this has added a lot of replayability in itself. My fingers are crossed that the AI can actually leverage these new features.

Religion seems very varied and lending itself to multiple play-throughs, although at first glance some of the religious benefits seem a lot stronger than others and I haven't yet figured out (for example) why I'd ever prefer +2 faith from a world wonder over +1 happiness for every city in the world that follows my faith.

Boudica's unique trait is awful ... a small faith boost in return for not improving forest tiles ... is it supposed to be that bad? The dance hall is good though.

Espionage is colourful, dumbed down and a bit too 'role play' but better than the unusable nightmare that was espionage in BTS.

City states ... meh, expanded but still hard to deal with, the quests are difficult to cope with in the early game and the best way to win them over is still to bribe them or plant spies in them.

So many buildings and wonders now, that it's really impossible to get a chance to build them until your civilization is well established (i.e. once you've secured your borders with a military and planted most cities). Supposedly ancient-era buildings like granaries, temples and ampitheatres are unacceptable luxuries in the early game, because if you spend time building them a neighbour that spent that time building an army will come over and take you out. Thus you can't actually get round to building many buildings or wonders until much later in the game. I think you should be able to build one military unit and one building/wonder at a time per city.

 

[binhthuy71]

A thought on espionage - tech stealing seems to be ridiculously easy. Yes, it takes a long time, but I've had techs stolen from Adrianople three times now, despite building a Constabulary and posting my own Spy in there. On none of the three occasions did I get to find out who it was, although it's probably either Pachacuti or Carthage. Has anyone else been experiencing this, or have I just been unlucky?

You can open a dialog with your most likely suspects and go to Discuss then choose "Stop spying on me." I caught Bismarck red handed in one game (Carthage, King, Standard, Large Islands) and told him to stop spying on me. He agreed. Several turns later (I suspect that the AI has an as yet undocumented advantage in either its number of spies or the frequency with which it gets them) I again caught Bismarck. This time I DoWd. My goal was not to roll up Bismarck, but to slap him good and hard so I pillaged everything I could with Lancers and retreated them when necessary to a strong position of melee supported by siege. Mixed Frigates and Privateers either sank or captured every one of his ships. He eventually offered peace on modestly favorable terms and I took it.

Although I shared the tech lead with India throughout the rest of the game I did not have any techs stolen after the fracas with Bismarck. It will take a few more games to determine whether or not that was mere coincidence.

 

[jacobwt226]

That's the way I bought Alan Wake (best gaming decision ever (other then civ5)). But I love it, I feel like it adds, and deletes, and never really gets out of hand. I find it the best DLC I have ever bought. BTW, I find the celts benefit useful, if you are a religious player then that starts you out a lot quicker! I have found nothing in it to hate, and I love how they decoded it to make it less laggy!

 

[Andulias]

I was sceptical and almost wasn't going to buy it until I got drunk one night and pre-purchased it in a state of inebriated compulsion.

Some of our best decisions in life are made while suffering from alcohol intoxication

However I am really pleased by what they've done with combat and the addition of lots of new units. Naval combat, melee ships, ships taking cities, and great admirals is a really nice addition, even if I haven't had a chance to see much naval combat or inter-continental invasions yet. As a warmonger this has added a lot of replayability in itself. My fingers are crossed that the AI can actually leverage these new features.

It's better than vanilla for sure, but still far from perfect. You will get more action out of the new AI though, that's certain.

Religion seems very varied and lending itself to multiple play-throughs, although at first glance some of the religious benefits seem a lot stronger than others and I haven't yet figured out (for example) why I'd ever prefer +2 faith from a world wonder over +1 happiness for every city in the world that follows my faith.

Because it's not per city, it's per 5 followers in each city. In other words, a city with a population of 5, of which 3 have have converted to your faith, will generate 0 happiness for you.

Boudica's unique trait is awful ... a small faith boost in return for not improving forest tiles ... is it supposed to be that bad? The dance hall is good though.

Think again. Thanks to your starting bias your first city will certainly be in a wooded area. This means you will probably get your pantheon before anyone else, taking the best pantheon beliefs, and quite possibly you will be the first to found your own religion as well. Boudicca's UA is actually pretty powerful.

Espionage is colourful, dumbed down and a bit too 'role play' but better than the unusable nightmare that was espionage in BTS.

If anything, it's not enough role play IMO. Hopefully it's just the basis for something bigger and better

City states ... meh, expanded but still hard to deal with, the quests are difficult to cope with in the early game and the best way to win them over is still to bribe them or plant spies in them.

My experience so far has been different. In the late game gold is still the best option, but early on without Trading Posts it can be pretty tough to bribe them. The quests are numerous, interesting and they do bring in some flavour. I approve.
So many buildings and wonders now, that it's really impossible to get a chance to build them until your civilization is well established (i.e. once you've secured your borders with a military and planted most cities).

Supposedly ancient-era buildings like granaries, temples and ampitheatres are unacceptable luxuries in the early game, because if you spend time building them a neighbour that spent that time building an army will come over and take you out. Thus you can't actually get round to building many buildings or wonders until much later in the game. I think you should be able to build one military unit and one building/wonder at a time per city.

No. Just no. CiV isn't a war game, no matter what haters will tell you, we have Warlock: Masters of the Arcane for that. If you want to be a builder, just get some archers and a basic army up and ready, that's it. Cities are hard to take and require siege weapons, so it will be very hard for the AI to take you on, especially in the early game.

Oh, and maybe this thread can be merged with the First Impressions thread, I think it's only fitting You will find there that you weren't the first one to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Andulias]

Although I shared the tech lead with India throughout the rest of the game I did not have any techs stolen after the fracas with Bismarck. It will take a few more games to determine whether or not that was mere coincidence.

Oh my God, please do so! If it actually works this way, G+K wins yet another GIGANTIC plus in my book, it would be absolutely brilliant! Damn, I gotta check this!

 

[rastak]

Finished a great game yesterday. Played on King, Shuffle map which was likely continents (had no city states, not sure if I goofed it up or if shuffle did that). I was Arabs and had lots of desert of course, and got good religeon bonuses based on desert. Anyway, I was kind of spread out, Aztecs were on my south border sith Ottomans below him. I settled my fourth city away from my first three to grab some copper (lots) and shortly thereafter Aztecs hit me hard there with a swarm of swordsman, taking the city down quickly. I actually was worried they could overwhelm my other sort of nearby city. After my isolated city went down Aztecs turned south and declared war on Ottomans, leaving me alone. A decision they would later regret.

I was running maybe 4th all game on points but clawed my way back up in tech. I amassed a pretty good army and late in the game fought a really cool war with Monty with lots of modern weapons. I grabbed three cities including his capitol and made peace. Being way behind, I pushed really hard science and started building the spaceship, after Germany and Egypt had already started. Despite being behind I damn near won it. Bismark launched his ship one turn before I would have. I ended up third in points. Brilliantly fun game.