First Look: Kongo

[Siptah]

Well I certainly was not expecting a new First Look video this weekend, let alone Kongo being the subject civilization.
Overall they look interesting so they are continuing that trend with each reveal, but I do hope that we start moving away from all these faith related civilizations for the next couple reveals.

We had militaristic civs, we had cultural civs, a commerce civ, a production civ, some faith civs. I'm really looking forward for the science ones more than anything.

 

[qwertyuio]

Just remember that Great People don't work the same way as before, each have unique bonuses and abilities.

Yeah, I know. They still seem very good because some key techs for Science Victory get boosts only thru them or spies. (http://well-of-souls.com/civ/images/civ6_tech_tree1.jpg) Also it's kinda like massive steal from other civilizations that will not get Scientists because of you, so it's a way to be ahead scientifically in the late game.

 

[Lord Lakely]

i've a feeling there may be no science civs? Civs which focus on science tend to be OP anyway (such as Korea and Babylon in Civ5 and any creative/financial/philisophical civ in Civ4), so if there is a "science civ", I'd expect them to have a more indirect bonus, like China and Brazil.

 

[stealth_nsk]

i've a feeling there may be no science civs? Civs which focus on science tend to be OP anyway (such as Korea and Babylon in Civ5 and any creative/financial/philisophical civ in Civ4), so if there is a "science civ", I'd expect them to have a more indirect bonus, like China and Brazil.

1. Civ5 science civs were overpowered due to overpowered "tall" play in Civ5 in the first place.

2. With separate cultural tree and a lot of things to do with faith, science is going to be less important in Civ6 than in previous civs (it still could be the most important one, though).

I expect unique Campus to be in game.

 

[Siptah]

i've a feeling there may be no science civs? Civs which focus on science tend to be OP anyway (such as Korea and Babylon in Civ5 and any creative/financial/philisophical civ in Civ4), so if there is a "science civ", I'd expect them to have a more indirect bonus, like China and Brazil.

So far we had the Eureka Bonus (China), the Mission (Spain) and the adjacency campus bonus (Brazil). I still hope for the Madrassa to give +3 science or something and hope for a Russian Science UB. But I can't imagine there is no other civ besides China that has a UA build around science. Brazil's UA is more a rainforest UA than a science UA.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It seems to be 20 gold per great people point so you are probably better off focusing on campuses then gold if you want great scientists. Great merchants seems to be a big source of envoys so you could use these to get bonuses from science city states.

I don't think science is overpowered.

 

[Siptah]

How many different great people will be in the final game is still one of the greatest mysteries to me. We haven't seen any past industrial age IIRC. I hope it will be at least twice as much as we know right now. I'd really prefer it if we didn't have the same great people around in every game.

Edit: and I wonder how they'll do it for the information age great people. Adding living persons? Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates as Great Merchant? And who'd be a Great General / Admiral?

Edit: these question really belong into another thread.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Im pretty sure you will have the same great people order in every game like the founding fathers in colonization.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Im pretty sure you will have the same great people order in every game like the founding fathers in colonization.

I don't think so. Great People have age associated with them, so it would make sense to give random Great Person of the current age.

 

[Lord Lakely]

well, if that's the case, I totally expect Arabia to have a science bonus of sorts (related to the Civ Ability or Madrassas, not their leader - Saladin will almost definitely get a faith and/or a military bonus, I'm sure.). Sumeria too, depending on how their Ziggurat's work (could be like the Mayan Pyramids in Civ 5 for all we know).

I doubt Russia would be totally focused on Science. Peter's UA might be, but every civilization revealed so far is really balanced and good at more than one aspect of the game. If Russia has a UB, I doubt it will be science-oriented if Peter's UA already is.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Spain is science focused as its unique improvement can provide science.

 

[Siptah]

Spain is science focused as its unique improvement can provide science.

I've written about the mission above. I wouldn't call a civ with unique improvement that gives +1 science if adjacent to a campus science 'focused' though.

 

[BenZL43]

Anybody recognize where they get the reference for Kongo's city art style? It looks more West Africa to me and doesn't look like Afonso's background image at all.

Also, I don't like how they display the great works. It looks untidy and not elegant at all - Civ5 has it better.

 

[Siptah]

I wonder if any player that doesn't like building wonders will try a strategy with Kongo that does not involve going the whole mysticism path in the civics tree. You will miss the temple, some wonders, some policy cards, and Theocracy + Monarchy. So I guess that I will never attempt that. But maybe a very specialized strategy that is good without all those things?

Also, I don't like how they display the great works. It looks untidy and not elegant at all - Civ5 has it better.

I guess the pictures of the great works are not finalized. We'll see how it turns out in the end. As it is now it seem not that easy to read as Civ 5's.

 

[Amrunril]

This sounds like an interesting civ, but I'm a bit annoyed that at this point they're still revealing civs/abilities that modify mechanics we don't understand yet. Yes we know in a general sense that neighborhoods are a district that provides housing and that great works/relics are a source of culture/faith/tourism generated by great people,but we haven't had any sort of detailed explanation, like what we have for religion, and we haven't seen them, except as goody hut rewards, in gameplay videos. Until we have a better sense of how common/easy to acquire great works and neighborhoods are and what sort of impact they have on the game by default, its impossible to evaluate unique bonuses that modify them (which is presumably why this discussion focuses so heavily on the leader bonus).

 

[Siptah]

This sounds like an interesting civ, but I'm a bit annoyed that at this point they're still revealing civs/abilities that modify mechanics we don't understand yet. Yes we know in a general sense that neighborhoods are a district that provides housing and that great works/relics are a source of culture/faith/tourism generated by great people,but we haven't had any sort of detailed explanation, like what we have for religion, and we haven't seen them, except as goody hut rewards, in gameplay videos. Until we have a better sense of how common/easy to acquire great works and neighborhoods are and what sort of impact they have on the game by default, its impossible to evaluate unique bonuses that modify them (which is presumably why this discussion focuses so heavily on the leader bonus).

Even without knowing how to generate relics, I believe the UA of Kongo to be extremely strong if you want to micromanage. Or generate one super city and put all relics, artifacts, sculptures there.
What I'm wondering is where you put the relics? Do we know that? I always thought they may go into the holy site or some building there. But when Kongo has no holy sites but a relic bonus... At least one seems to have a spot in the palace IIRC.
I wonder why Arioch has put the info that Mbanzas require rainforests on his site. Does he know more than we know? The video states that they replace the neighborhood, not just being the same available earlier. So a Kongo without rain forests would be weak in the late game, if this terrain is needed to build them. In the screenshot on the civ site, all neighborhoods have jungle on the same tile. But maybe that's just how it looks?

 

[Krajzen]

This sounds like an interesting civ, but I'm a bit annoyed that at this point they're still revealing civs/abilities that modify mechanics we don't understand yet. Yes we know in a general sense that neighborhoods are a district that provides housing and that great works/relics are a source of culture/faith/tourism generated by great people,but we haven't had any sort of detailed explanation, like what we have for religion, and we haven't seen them, except as goody hut rewards, in gameplay videos. Until we have a better sense of how common/easy to acquire great works and neighborhoods are and what sort of impact they have on the game by default, its impossible to evaluate unique bonuses that modify them (which is presumably why this discussion focuses so heavily on the leader bonus).

I agree. While I like the concept of first look videos per each civ, other than that I think civ6 marketing and previewing is chaotic and weird. I really prefer Paradox style very regular dev diaries and gradual uncovering of all mechanics of games/expansions/patches.

We still don't know many things - how culture and tourism and archeology work, how aircraft works, how spies work, how late game religion works, yet we keep getting civs with bonuses we don't truly understand.
Damn, we still have no idea what are "government legacy bonuses" of American bonus, or what does "bullying smaller ships" by English ship mean.

Add to this FL videos frequently not showing icon of civ, or parts of its abilities, and especially diplomatic agenda (so major feature) and you get really unclear view.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I've been thinking on Kongoese strategy. It seems like the bonuses synergize for population growth. The Mbanza definitely helps it. It seems likely that at half cost and no population restriction, you can build so many of them as soon as they become available to supercharge your population. Additionally, Relics, Artifacts, and Sculptures give you food among other things. And you have a bonus to getting Sculptures from Great Artists. Nvemba's free Apostles give him a route to more Relics. The Great Merchants and Gold from Mbanzas and the Great Work stuff can be leveraged to buyout more Great Artists for more Sculptures for more food.

Where you go from there is up to you. Culture Victory seems pretty good, since you are already collecting all these Great Works. Science seems good since you are building high population. Production and Gold advantages could be leveraged towards the military for a Domination Victory. The only one that is unclear is the religious victory. Can you win it by seizing the Holy City from its founder.

 

[MadDjinn]

Then maybe they should have looked for a leader that werent so eager at replacing the native beliefs of his people by foreigner's own. I can see your points, and diversity is always good, especially in these kind of games (I too, would like some random off civs be included to fill the YNAEMaps) but what ticks me off here is that the designers kinda make a Kongo looks more "ethnic" just to make their point about diversity clearer,when they actually dont have to do that. Kongo is fine on their own with their own native twist of Catholiscism, which I think the designers overlook when designing Mvemba a Nzinga, while implementing it briliantly on their unique ability.

I'm a bit diasppointed that most of those buildings and districts don't look like they fit in with that culture at all. I was hoping they'd diversify tile improvements and such a bit more.

E: Kinda puzzled about the gap others have mentioned as well. Sounds like this man was very eager to give up his people's faith and culture(?) in favour of foreigners ones, but then he presents himself to us in a traditional sort of tribal outfit. I don't know much about him, but either his design or Firaxis' introduction to this man is faulty.

I think people are missing the point of it not being Afonso!

If it was Afonso, then he would have already been converted to Christianity... but in game, it could be 'any' religion that happens to wander over. Design wise, I think this is a much smarter choice to use his real name and his appearance before conversion.

Now, what would be extra cool would be if he switched clothing style to the culture group style of whomever spread their religion to him.

Even without knowing how to generate relics, I believe the UA of Kongo to be extremely strong if you want to micromanage. Or generate one super city and put all relics, artifacts, sculptures there.
What I'm wondering is where you put the relics? Do we know that? I always thought they may go into the holy site or some building there. But when Kongo has no holy sites but a relic bonus... At least one seems to have a spot in the palace IIRC.

There's only a few places that 'could' hold artifacts/arts/etc, so possibly they just modded one of the standard ones to allow relics for Kongo.

I wonder why Arioch has put the info that Mbanzas require rainforests on his site. Does he know more than we know? The video states that they replace the neighborhood, not just being the same available earlier. So a Kongo without rain forests would be weak in the late game, if this terrain is needed to build them. In the screenshot on the civ site, all neighborhoods have jungle on the same tile. But maybe that's just how it looks?

Quick look at the screenshots and FL video.. are all Mbanzas on rainforests? most seem to show trees of some sort, so possibly he keyed off of that.

...

More generally though, Brazil and Kongo are going to have 'words' over who controls the rainforests. Possibly best outcome for Kongo is to just let the Brazillian build the districts, then wander over and take the cities and drop a bunch of Mbanzas.

 

[Seek]

Quick look at the screenshots and FL video.. are all Mbanzas on rainforests? most seem to show trees of some sort, so possibly he keyed off of that.

Quite a few are not on rainforests and some are not even adjacent to them or forests. I suspect they simply get an adjacency bonus (and perhaps a bonus to settling on them since they don't chop them) granting the food and gold.