Flavor Units Project

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

To tell you the truth, I think its realistic to have all Civs converge into one common military theme(as in real life) by the middle of Civ3's "Industrial" age.

For example, every civ could have its own unique armies, but everything starts to look the same(as is the case today) when you reach Replacable Parts and other techs of the 20th century.

As for Siege, thats at the bottom of the list, although it would be nice to have some of the more ununual Cultural pacific siege weapons, like the Incan(is it Incan?) "Beehive Bomb". I'm more concerned about the Naval units of the Ancient to Imperial(American Revulutionary/Nepolianic) Eras

 

[Ozymandias]

To tell you the truth, I think its realistic to have all Civs converge into one common military theme(as in real life) by the middle of Civ3's "Industrial" age.

A common misconception, I would argue. Militaries tended towards "sameness" in any given period only after they had fought each other for a sustained amount of time. Examples:

1. The Soviet "behemoth" land battleships at the opening of WW2.
2. The development (or not) of long range strategic bombers -- not to mention the "UU" of the Zeppelin as an early example.
3. Wheeled military vehicles existing in armed forces poised for interventionist, third world conflicts (France; South Africa) whereas the US eschewed wheeled AFVs for decades.
4. Tracked AFVs designed for very specific theaters of operation (Merkava; Strindsvagen).

-- And, after a sustained period of fighting like WW1, eventually the very different breakthrough "UUs" of the Tank and the Stosstruppen emerged.

Just some quick examples, and my dos centavos, on the matter.

-Oz

Edit/PS -- & this doesn't even take into account extreme doctrinal differences, e.g. NATO vs. Warsaw Pact.

-O.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I suppose you are correct, but I don't think the Battleships are different looking enough to warrant a separate unit(Wyrmshadow...hint, hint), or that their should be 1000 different colored Infantry. Generally, the core of my view is to lessen the load on the unit makers.

 

[Figaro]

Exactly. At the most we could have seperate units for the different culture groups - so for example an Asian Galleon, an European Galleon, a Mid East Galleon, a Mediterranean Galleon and an American Galleon. If you wanted you could split them into sub-groups, e.g. an East European and West European version of various units and so on, an African and Middle East version etc. etc.

You could even have each civ conform to their own culture group set of units but verge off occasionally only to rejoin at a later point. For example, the Romans have a complete set of flavour units for the aincient era, but Italian units would probably look more or less similar to the other Europeans by the end. Similarly the Americans started off as immigrants from Europe, so why should they get American Pikemen and so forth?

The goal of the Flavo-U-r Units pack is noble but lofty - if the designers were to make some full 40 odd units for each civilization we'd be old and grey (no offence meant to anyone who's old or grey) by the time it would be finished. By picking and choosing the right units to make we can lessen the workload and get a full result in a realistic timescale.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Many of the civs can have flavor units condensed down into cultural groups in the ancient and middle ages. Sometimes they need distinctly different units for each civ, but many do not. Mesoamericans really don't need separate units aside from their UUs which we have for both now. Similarly, most of the generic units work pretty well for 90% of the European civs' units. A number of Asian units work well for Koreans, Chinese and Mongolian alike.

If you are referring to the Industrial eras though, I think grouping by culture is a bad idea.

Ozymandias has stressed what I think to be the proper direction elsewhere:

Group the civs according to strategy (i.e....):

Light Tanks
Medium Tanks
Heavy Tanks

Light Bombers
Medium Bombers
Heavy Bombers

Similar examples for ships, infantry, etc.

The idea being that a civ like Babylon, for example, might opt for behemoth tanks, while a civ like the Iroquois for example, would probably favor light tanks. Similar strategies develop for infantry, air, and sea as well. Expansionist civs might be given weaker fighters and stronger bombers, while the more "defensive" civs given vise versa. Similarly, the Mongols might favor a navy consisting of cheap cruisers while the Polynesians will construct massive catamaran aircraft carriers and such .

So, in general, for all of those civs that never made it to the Industrial era, three kinds of each unit would be sufficient, and the best part is that by mixing and matching the variations, you can have completely different strategies.

So you basically need: 3 types of tanks, 3 types of bombers, 3 types of fighters, 3 types of battleships, 3 types of cruisers, 3 types of destroyers, 3 types of jet bombers, 3 types of jet fighters, and 3 types of modern armor, and you're set... and if you can't find ALL of these units already in Wyrmshadow's or ripptide's collections already, I suggest you get out of the modding biz

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Alot of things could be used in that regard. The Mech Infantry for example, would work as a Modern Light Tank.

Also, the Incans aren't Mesoamericans, so I wouldn't give them Eagle Warriors or other stuff, but who cares, since the Incans land forces were completed already

 

[Ozymandias]

Also, the Incans aren't Mesoamericans, so I wouldn't give them Eagle Warriors or other stuff, but who cares, since the Incans land forces were completed already

Oh, I dunno Ripptide made an excellent Fiat Ansaldo wheeled tank at my request which I use for the Incans, the rationale being that their Civ would have been so road-bound that wheeled tanks would have made sense for them.

-Oz

 

[Bungus]

I wouldn't not have any problem paying forquality units. So long as size, offset, sounds etc didn't have to be tweaked. asie from legallity issues, one problem is what if I wanted to make and post a mod using these units? You couldn't charge people for downloading a mod. And people would steal the filesanyway. Unit makers put alot of time and effort into creations; asking for some compensation is not unreasonable, but it does seem difficult to implement.

 

[Bungus]

Hey DP2x, as the cat's out of the bag regarding your little "christmas surprise", you think you could maybe post what units your making (or PM me if you don't want to ruin the surprise for everyone else). I'm almost finished with my personal mod and I'd hate to stat an epic game only to have several (hundred?) units released a week later...
If I knew what they were, I could add placeholders in the Bic and just change the animations when they come out.

 

[Figaro]

Hmm, I know what you're getting at in terms of grouping units according to strategy, but isn't that straying from the original goal of providing units according to civilization?

You're right though - as cultures move on in history they seem to have gotten much less different from one another and converged into a big mess of Humanity (now all we need are Alien race civs...). Flavour units for the Industrial and modern era tend to just be different 'generic' units plonked into roles for different civs.
I agree though, it's probably the best way to get a decent, varied result from limited units available for so many civs - just not culture representative, which is kind of the effect I wanted really. *sigh*

P.S. That's a great idea! A Polynesian Catamaran Aircraft carrier! Anyone doing one at the moment..?

 

[Ozymandias]

Ozymandias has stressed what I think to be the proper direction elsewhere:

Anyone really interested can check out the first part of this old thread.

-Oz

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Well, certainly I'm not against the idea of flavor units past the Rifleman, its just that militaries aren't really that different anymore. Alot of countries use US made stuff, or English or French, even Russian.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Hmm, I know what you're getting at in terms of grouping units according to strategy, but isn't that straying from the original goal of providing units according to civilization?

P.S. That's a great idea! A Polynesian Catamaran Aircraft carrier! Anyone doing one at the moment..?

Yes, it's in my dry dock actually.

And also, the units may not directly be a product of the civilization's culture, but the strategy is...

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

You think so? I suppose it is in a way. It really depends on a number of factors, ala political, moral etc

 

[Figaro]

Possibly - but I really aren't all that knowledgeable of the kind of tactics used by various peoples.

The huge batch of assorted Riflemen and WWI/2 infantry recently been released by someone (not sure who but they're damn good, whoever it was) mean we can use civ-specific riflemen and infantry for most of the bigger nations.

DPII - what happened to your Meiji Rifleman (I think it was you), Samurai Musketeer and those other japanese units you made? Because they were damn good but I can't seem to find them anywhere.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Check the Unit Artist's Libraury...hehe

 

[Thuldorn]

Ok I'm relatively new to this forum, at least from a posting standpoint, but I wanted to add my 2 cents. I'm working on a mod trying to add flavor units for all the units of a couple diferent countries, as you can guess It's not easy finding the proper units every time and I'm not going to be able to make my own units just now, (If at all cause I suck at drawing).

Anyway I'e worked my way throught he Japanese mostly and based on what I've been able to find historically I'm not real fond of the Japanese list in this thread (at least in the beginning I haven't had time to read ever post).

Basically the Otomo units should all be Ancient era units based on the research I've done, and the Ashigura would all be middle ages.

Here's my list (In the order I added them to my civilpedia file along with brief clips from the file as to why some units are where they are:

^The [Special Naval Landing Forces], the Naval ground combat unit of WWII Japan replaces the $LINK<Marine=PRTO_Marine>. (JAPLAnder download)

[Meiji Rifleman], were introduced during the time of Emperor Meiji and replaces the $LINK<Rifleman=PRTO_Rifleman> for the Japanese
In 1867/68, the Tokugawa era found an end in the Meiji Restoration.

The Oda Arquebusier is the Japanese replacement for the $Link<Musketman=PRTO_Musketman>.
Oda Nobunaga (1534-1582) was the first individual to attempt to unify Japan at the end of the Warring States period.

The Ashigaru Footman is the Japanese replacement for the $Link<Pikeman=PRTO_Pikeman>.

The Otomo Spearman is the Japanese replacement for the $Link<Spearman=PRTO_Spearman>.
Nara Period 710-794
In 784 the noted poet-governor Ôtomo Yakamochi was given the title of Sei-I-shogun (barbarian-quelling general)

The Kensai is the Japanese replacement for the $Link<Medieval Infantry=PRTO_Medieval_Infantry>. (Could Use BUSHI here as well).
--However from around 720 A.D. onward, original Kensai swordsmiths
fordged katana swords

The Otomo Swordsmen is the Japanese replacement for the $Link<Swordsman=PRTO_Swordsman>.

The Meiji Cavalry are the Japanese replacements for the $Link<Cavalry=PRTO_Cavalry>. (Download as Samurai Cavalry).

The Mounted Samurai are a flavor alternative for $Link<Minamoto Samurai=PRTO_Minamoto_Samurai>.
--Ancient Yayoi warriors developed weapons, armour and a code during the ensuing centuries that became the centerpiece for the Japanese Samurai. Early weapons included bows, arrows and swords. The early Samurai emphasized fighting with the bow and arrow. They used swords for close fighting and beheading their enemies. Battles with the Mongols in the late 13th century led to a change in the Samurai's fighting style. The Samurai slowly changed from fighting on horseback to fighting on foot.

I substituted the Minamoto Samurai for the regular Samurai but I really wanted to use the mounted one as well, So I just added it in with the same stats.

[Otomo Horse Archer]s are mounted warriors as a flavor replacement for the $LINK<Horseman=PRTO_HORSEMAN>.
I can't recall if the download was caled Otomo Horse Archers or Japanese Horse Archers
During the Nara Period, (in) 672 A succession dispute follows the death of the Emperor Tenchi. The Nihongi (Chronicles of Japan) mention the use of mounted archers, a possible early model for the future samurai.

Otomo Archers are the Japanese replacements for the $LINK<Archer=PRTO_Archer>.

Samurai Archers are the Japanese replacements for the $LINK<Longbowman=PRTO_Longbowman>.

Japanese Catapult=Catapult (Downladed from here, I think)

Fire Cannon=Cannon

Seige Crossbow=Trebuchet

The Kha-Go also known as the Ha-Go is the tank favoured by the Japanese during World War II. (Light Tank)

IJN_Shokaku for AC

Kamikaze= earlly cruise missle

Japanese Zero=General fighter

D3AVal=Ground Support fighter (not quite accurate but)

Nakajima Ki-84 Interceptor

[Japanese Infantry] are infantry units replacing the usual $Link<Infantry=PRTO_Infantry>. (Imperial Marines Download)

Nakajima A1N Biplane, Early flight, (Using an Albatros cause the pictures seemed close)


Shinhoto Japanese Heavy Tank (T38T unit again just becasue it looks similar)

Betty as the Medium Bomber

Akizuki=Destroyer

Otsu=WWII Sub

SNLF (JAPLAnder download as Marines)

Type 90 Tank as MBT

Mitsubishi F2B as Jet Fighter (F-16 model as this is a derivative of that AC)

 

[ShiroKobbure]

any chance of you making more East Asian units Dom? Or are you completely finished with civ 3?

 

[Kyriakos]

wrong thread (self deleted post)

 

[Bungus]

Don't think Dom's been active for a while, and Ihighly doubt he's making anymore units.

I suppose this is on topic:
I don't think DP's flavor units project will ever see the light of day, but I made a quite massive flavor unit mod, using all the available graphics: many of Dom padro's units, as well as all the other best creator's stuff. If anyone's interested its in my sig