Following rules: inherently a virtue?

Yeah, I'm not saying the pyramids were a corporate team-building exercise that went off the rails. I'm saying kooky ideologies create coordination and that's what makes things like the pyramids possible
Yes, the pyramids were Pharoahic burial building project, but they also provided jobs, housing and food for lots of people. The desire of kings and nobles to live in grand style meant that to enjoy such a life they had to have lots and lots of worker bees around create such fancy houses and provide a never ending supply of fancy goods and services for them.
 
I agree. But here's the question...since we all can pretty much see the obvious tax dodgers who are really getting away with sums that genuinely hurt, how is it that the assigned enforcement agency is really more interested in catching people like me* who most people would look at and say "maybe that guy does need a hand" and will only go after people like the Enron gang if they are outright forced into it?
It's simple. You don't have an army of rich lawyers to thwart them. You are an easier target.
 
It's simple. You don't have an army of rich lawyers to thwart them. You are an easier target.

And laudable as they are, I'm rather hopeful we can avoid emulating the Greeks on taxes.
 
Furthermore, at the time I wrote this, 167,113 of Amazon’s book reviews were contributed by just a few "top-100" reviewers; the most prolific reviewer had written 12,423 reviews. How anybody can write that many reviews — let alone read that many books — is beyond me, but it's a classic example of participation inequality.
I contribute book reviews on Amazon (the Canadian site) on occasion (no, I don't use my full name there).

The reviews referred to in the Reddit post are not real people spending all day, every day writing reviews. Just as no one particular person wrote all the Nancy Drew books, the Hardy Boys books, or the Children of the Lion books, no one particular person wrote all the reviews supposedly by Harriet Klausner. Those are house names, used by many authors who have to follow a standard formula to make it appear to be by the same individual.
 
Well, I fit the description. I do consider it to be an attack on my person. I am sure Mary would not like to hear my "general belief" about the motives and psychology of people who follow the law because it's there, so that's why I didn't offer it and don't plan to.
And I could take it as an attack on my person. I simply choose not to, because I believe there's enough nuance described for me to make that separation. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I don't need to make an incredibly self-deprecating statement to make someone else seem unreasonable in their worldview. There's no value to that kind of defeatist claim, except as an argument to absurdity (or general nihilism, but I've never gotten that notion from you).

You and I, and others, we bang on about good faith, right? It's disconcerting to see you abandon it because you're choosing to interpret Mary strictly with regards to what she is obliged to do, despite then needing others to cite federal law at you. You goofed, in my opinion. I figure I understand why - any general obedience to the law can result in a rather scary situation when it comes to believing in people. The road to hell is paved with good intentions - I think that's your fear here, even if it's not stated? But if it is, and I'm not guessing blindly, lead with something like that.
 
I contribute book reviews on Amazon (the Canadian site) on occasion (no, I don't use my full name there).

The reviews referred to in the Reddit post are not real people spending all day, every day writing reviews. Just as no one particular person wrote all the Nancy Drew books, the Hardy Boys books, or the Children of the Lion books, no one particular person wrote all the reviews supposedly by Harriet Klausner. Those are house names, used by many authors who have to follow a standard formula to make it appear to be by the same individual.
Yes they are. For example, that dude Grady Harp apparently splits his time between being a surgeon and writing crazy numbers of Amazon book reviews. Point is, the internet has extreme participation inequality and most of the content you see is by a tiny fraction of the users. Those people tend to be pretty unusual
 
Yes they are. For example, that dude Grady Harp apparently splits his time between being a surgeon and writing crazy numbers of Amazon book reviews. Point is, the internet has extreme participation inequality and most of the content you see is by a tiny fraction of the users. Those people tend to be pretty unusual
There is no possible way that any one real person could write that many reviews. For one thing, it's expected that they've actually read the book, and how could they possibly have time for that if they spend all their time writing?
 
There is no possible way that any one real person could write that many reviews. For one thing, it's expected that they've actually read the book, and how could they possibly have time for that if they spend all their time writing?
Actually, he looks pretty suspicious. It looks like virtually all of his reviews are glowing 5 star reviews. I think he takes solicitations from publicists. It could be multiple people, too. Another one was this lady Harriet Klausner (she died a few years ago). It looks like she was a single, real person, but she didn't actually read the books, at least not closely.
Author John Birmingham deliberately included a character called Harriet Klausner in his novel Designated Targets. It was noted that Klausner made no mention of this in her review, casting doubt on whether she had fully read the book.
 
Last edited:
Actually, he looks pretty suspicious. It looks like virtually all of his reviews are glowing 5 star reviews. I think he takes solicitations from publicists. It could be multiple people, too. Another one was this lady Harriet Klausner (she died a few years ago). It looks like she was a single, real person, but she didn't actually read the books, at least not closely.
There's a rather snobbish, nose-in-the-air Star Trek tie-in novelist who posts on TrekBBS (Christopher L. Bennett), who once boasted that Harriet Klausner just loved one of his novels (he also boasted that Kevin J. Anderson did, as well, about a different novel).

I pointed out to him that Harriet Klausner couldn't possibly have written all the reviews attributed to her, which made me think that other people actually wrote them under her name (ghostwriting is a concept that should have been very familiar to him as it's common in SF tie-in circles; ie. George Lucas didn't write the novelization for Star Wars, Alan Dean Foster did). I also told him that in my own opinion, thumbsup from KJA wasn't much to brag about, given how little I think of his own writing.
 
You and I, and others, we bang on about good faith, right? It's disconcerting to see you abandon it because you're choosing to interpret Mary strictly with regards to what she is obliged to do, despite then needing others to cite federal law at you.

No federal law was actually cited. I didn't expect it to be, because I'm sure I'm right about the issue. I wasn't talking about what Tim was talking about - I already know about what he mentioned.

Consider this case:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wing-illegal-immigrant-escape-ice/3574450002/

Now, perhaps the case will eventually be ruled in favor of the judge here, but I tend to doubt it. And given that a judge was charged with obstruction for doing relatively modest things to thwart an ICE operation to arrest one guy, it simply beggars belief that private citizens would not be breaking the law if they hinder ICE officers by, for example, tipping off undocumented people, using themselves as human shields to block ICE vehicles, lying to ICE officers about having seen anyone passing this way, etc. etc.

Also, I think you missed some context for the discussion provided by a PM exchange Mary and I had prior to the posts that were made yesterday. If you'd read that I think it would have been obvious to you that I was going for an argument to absurdity and that I am not arguing in bad faith at all here.
 
No federal law was actually cited. I didn't expect it to be, because I'm sure I'm right about the issue. I wasn't talking about what Tim was talking about - I already know about what he mentioned.

Consider this case:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wing-illegal-immigrant-escape-ice/3574450002/

Now, perhaps the case will eventually be ruled in favor of the judge here, but I tend to doubt it. And given that a judge was charged with obstruction for doing relatively modest things to thwart an ICE operation to arrest one guy, it simply beggars belief that private citizens would not be breaking the law if they hinder ICE officers by, for example, tipping off undocumented people, using themselves as human shields to block ICE vehicles, lying to ICE officers about having seen anyone passing this way, etc. etc.

Also, I think you missed some context for the discussion provided by a PM exchange Mary and I had prior to the posts that were made yesterday. If you'd read that I think it would have been obvious to you that I was going for an argument to absurdity and that I am not arguing in bad faith at all here.
I've read the link and I understand the precedent. I'm also no expert (or even close) on US law. However there are distinct differences between judges ruling on a case and private companies that I feel I should raise, as well as citing this link about whom ICE actually arrests.

The problem is swapping between someone's personal views about how they make sense of the world (the same goes for this for Tim not being compelled by law to comply) and specific real-world examples that often demonstrate a real-world failure, be it in judgement, fairness, accountability, or anything inbetween. The argument was about posters and what they believe in. It's perfectly fine if a poster claims that they won't be compelled, because they might not have been in an unfair situation which forced their hand.

I'm guessing your concern is that they could be? If that's the case, I don't doubt that concern. I agree with it. But I also agree in letting people have the personal autonomy to resist, or even be incredulous, because it will all come down to a specific real-world time and place - you can't make that challenge of Tim because even you don't fully know how it'll go down. You can't make the hypothetical real.

As for PM exchanges, I can't comment on them, or be reasonably expected to know them! :p Not that, for me personally, that would make an argument to absurdity a good thing, anyhow. They're inherently reductionist, and rarely useful in meaningful discussions (opinionionion, etc).
 
No federal law was actually cited. I didn't expect it to be, because I'm sure I'm right about the issue. I wasn't talking about what Tim was talking about - I already know about what he mentioned.

Consider this case:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...wing-illegal-immigrant-escape-ice/3574450002/

Now, perhaps the case will eventually be ruled in favor of the judge here, but I tend to doubt it. And given that a judge was charged with obstruction for doing relatively modest things to thwart an ICE operation to arrest one guy, it simply beggars belief that private citizens would not be breaking the law if they hinder ICE officers by, for example, tipping off undocumented people, using themselves as human shields to block ICE vehicles, lying to ICE officers about having seen anyone passing this way, etc. etc.
Indeed, you are not talking about what I am talking about. I don't think you are arguing in bad faith, but you are reaching pretty hard here.

In the Massachusetts case the judge wasn't asked to help them, which is what I said that ICE cannot do. The judge did help...the person ICE was attempting to arrest. That is, in fact, obstruction of justice by the legal definition under every version of the statute. You are ignoring the classic fleeing fugitive illustration. If you are on the sidewalk and see a man running towards you with a cop chasing him you have no legal obligation to put yourself at risk by obstructing the fleeing man, but you are also bound by law to NOT obstruct the pursuing cop. The judge here clearly "obstructed the pursuing cop" by taking an unprecedented and unexpected action, and that charge is very very likely to stick.

As well, your other examples are all demonstrations of obstruction that have NOTHING to do with ICE not being allowed to ask for assistance. YES, private citizens who HINDER ICE OFFICERS (your words) would in fact be committing obstruction.

Yes, telling someone "here come the cops" is aiding them and is a crime, but that doesn't mean that you are legally obligated to point out their direction when the cop comes looking for them.
Yes, blocking ICE vehicles with your body is obstruction. That doesn't mean that ICE agents can ask you to step in front of their suspects car.
Yes, lying to ICE officers, since they are federal agents, is a crime. That doesn't mean that you are EVER obligated to submit to questioning without an attorney so when they ask if anyone has passed this way the correct response is to hand them your attorney's card.

Etc, etc.

Bottom line, ICE is not allowed to ask for help, from ordinary citizens or even from other law enforcement agencies below the federal level. You already knew it, so asking for the citation was a bit forward, but you are forgiven.
 
As for PM exchanges, I can't comment on them, or be reasonably expected to know them! :p

Of course not. I am not 100% sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post but I think people should be prepared to either defend the application of their general statements to specific consequences, or admit that the general statement is wrong or needs to be qualified. And I think arguments to absurdity are quite useful tools for illustrating the limitations of someone's thinking or argument.

Yes, blocking ICE vehicles with your body is obstruction. That doesn't mean that ICE agents can ask you to step in front of their suspects car.
Yes, lying to ICE officers, since they are federal agents, is a crime. That doesn't mean that you are EVER obligated to submit to questioning without an attorney so when they ask if anyone has passed this way the correct response is to hand them your attorney's card.

The rub of the issue is I feel that sometimes there is a moral obligation to do these things, which you've now conceded are in fact illegal. And that in a nutshell is why my attitude toward the law is what it is.
 
The rub of the issue is I feel that sometimes there is a moral obligation to do these things, which you've now conceded are in fact illegal. And that in a nutshell is why my attitude toward the law is what it is.

I didn't need to concede it, I never suggested that obstructing the cops wasn't illegal.

What I was fighting against, and continue to fight against, is the widespread intentional misrepresentation that not helping them is also illegal. That is not the case except in a few very unusual and extreme circumstances, but a large portion of the population believes that they are required to take action to assist in enforcement of the law. Spreading the word that they are wrong, and have every right to just stand by and let cops do their job if they can or fail if they can't, is a moral obligation in itself.
 
Of course not. I am not 100% sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post but I think people should be prepared to either defend the application of their general statements to specific consequences, or admit that the general statement is wrong or needs to be qualified. And I think arguments to absurdity are quite useful tools for illustrating the limitations of someone's thinking or argument.
Oh, I definitely think people should be expected to clarify a ton of stuff. I was just surprised (again, in a relatively short space of time) at the tactic chosen. It's a bit meta, but probably the only point I actually still disagree on, so I'll go with it: I stand by my criticism of arguments to absurdity - especially in this context. If you're getting snarky (however mildly, even just to illustrate a point) over apparently how much of a terrible person you are, not only does it indicate that the original argument isn't been taken seriously, but it's also a defensive statement to make. So, in two ways, you're indicating that there isn't an argument there. This criticism is kinda voided by the PM exchange, but just getting it out there on the record :)

Secondly, with regards to discussion on virtues, taking Mary's general worldview which will absolutely have exceptions and in general be contextual to the issue at hand, and refocusing it on an individual judgement on you - however seriously or unseriously (Chrome's yelling at me for that spelling) you meant it - completely divorces it from the original context. That's another reason why (even if arguments to absurdity can have some general use) it doesn't seem like a great response here.
 
What I was fighting against, and continue to fight against, is the widespread intentional misrepresentation that not helping them is also illegal.

My point as I see it didn't really hinge on that detail.

Oh, I definitely think people should be expected to clarify a ton of stuff. I was just surprised (again, in a relatively short space of time) at the tactic chosen. It's a bit meta, but probably the only point I actually still disagree on, so I'll go with it: I stand by my criticism of arguments to absurdity - especially in this context. If you're getting snarky (however mildly, even just to illustrate a point) over apparently how much of a terrible person you are, not only does it indicate that the original argument isn't been taken seriously, but it's also a defensive statement to make. So, in two ways, you're indicating that there isn't an argument there. That part's kinda voided by the PM exchange.

Secondly, with regards to discussion on virtues, taking Mary's general worldview which will absolutely have exceptions and in general be contextual to the issue at hand, and refocusing it on an individual judgement on you - however seriously or unseriously (Chrome's yelling at me for that spelling) you meant it - completely divorces it from the original context. That's another reason why (even if arguments to absurdity can have some general use) it doesn't seem like a great response here.

I don't see the "I'm x" as having anything to do with the argument from absurdity. That was not snark, it was my honest reaction to reading those words.

I mean, I don't see this as fundamentally different from me saying "people who voted for Trump are stupid" and someone who voted for Trump responding "oh, guess I'm stupid then." My response then wouldn't be to pretend my statement was "general" and had nothing to do with that specific Trump voter, it would be "well if you voted for Trump, you are stupid."
 
My point as I see it didn't really hinge on that detail.

Perhaps not, but you did unintentionally re-enforce the erroneous impression.

ICE, by law, cannot ask you for help in apprehending their suspect, or in fact doing much of anything else. That's a stone cold truth that needs to be put firmly in the heads of everyone, particularly the heads of people who are predisposed to "following the law is the right thing to do."

Rather than support this statement, which you later acknowledged is something you already knew, you asked for a citation, then went off on the tangent of examples of actual illegal actions that had nothing to do with the basic statement that ICE cannot ask you for your assistance and you are not legally required to give them any. In doing so you cast doubt on the validity of that statement. I know that isn't your intent, but that's what happened.

These are the points that matter:
Citizens can report crimes if they choose to do so. They are not legally obligated to do so. Period. Full stop.
Citizens can assist cops if they choose to do so. They are not legally obligated to do so. If they do so they are completely at their own risk. The cops, legally, cannot ask them to do so and most assuredly cannot insist that they do so. Period. Full stop.
 
I don't see the "I'm x" as having anything to do with the argument from absurdity. That was not snark, it was my honest reaction to reading those words.

I mean, I don't see this as fundamentally different from me saying "people who voted for Trump are stupid" and someone who voted for Trump responding "oh, guess I'm stupid then." My response then wouldn't be to pretend my statement was "general" and had nothing to do with that specific Trump voter, it would be "well if you voted for Trump, you are stupid."
I mean, I see what you're getting at, I just see Mary's post as far less specifically-targeted than that. There was a lot more room for nuance than calling a group of people literally stupid (as supposed to saying they were stupid for doing so, for example - as usual, the wording makes all the difference).
 
Silly rules improve the capacity of agents to learn stable enforcement and compliance behaviors:
How can societies learn to enforce and comply with social norms? Here we investigate the learning dynamics and emergence of compliance and enforcement of social norms in a foraging game, implemented in a multi-agent reinforcement learning setting. In this spatiotemporally extended game, individuals are incentivized to implement complex berry-foraging policies and punish transgressions against social taboos covering specific berry types. We show that agents benefit when eating poisonous berries is taboo, meaning the behavior is punished by other agents, as this helps overcome a credit-assignment problem in discovering delayed health effects. Critically, however, we also show that introducing an additional taboo, which results in punishment for eating a harmless berry, improves the rate and stability with which agents learn to punish taboo violations and comply with taboos. Counterintuitively, our results show that an arbitrary taboo (a "silly rule") can enhance social learning dynamics and achieve better outcomes in the middle stages of learning. We discuss the results in the context of studying normativity as a group-level emergent phenomenon.
 
Back
Top Bottom