Foreign Policy: Apolyton

2metraninja · Oct 11, 2013

Sommerswerd said:
Only if t250 is enough to destroy CivFr. We dont want a scenario that t250 we are in the middle of War.

What if CP wont agree to the NAP? Surely at this point, they will see the writing on the wall and insist that we all give CivFr a NAP too?

Right. This is what we said to each-other just this morning:

аз: morning
I will send you the NAP offer most probably tonight, so far it looks good on our team
I started NAP negotiations with Ot4e too
he is like: "I will need guarantees I wont get doubled by you and MZ"
Изпратено в 09:55, петък
MZprox: hi
Изпратено в 11:43, петък
аз: hi
MZprox: no one should underestimate the Aztec's potential, though they have relatively small army now
аз: is it indeed small army?
MZprox: relatively
аз: I count the French army in their service too
MZprox: then not
аз: and french have no agreement with anyone to not gift army

same with ot4e - he have no agreement to not accept army
MZprox: I'm uncomfortable making plans with either you ar aztec against the third one.. even more uncomfortable thinking about that the two of us would plot against us so I rather not concern myself. I think attacking the maya would clear up things
аз: I still cant decide if French are just side-kicks to Ot4e for personal reasons or he promised them something real
MZprox: two of you**
аз: yes, same here, I have scruples to really discuss things
I was thinking something regarding French
we can know if Ot4e is so fond on them if we ask him to join our war?
though I am not sure I can take one more land split with ot4e without attacking him immediately for his arrogance
Изпратено в 11:51, петък
MZprox: I suggest we leave ot4e out of this. He will know about our plan anyway once we cancel nap with maya ten turns before our attack
Изпратено в 11:54, петък
аз: it is very important that we secure NAP with him after our current t210 NAP too, otherwise it will be weird
I think even 10-15 turns more will do the trick
once French are crippled, ot4e wont risk siding with them I think
but it is highly possible that he makes us extending NAP with Frenchies obligatory for us to have a NAP
what we do then?
I already regret we did not signed NAP with him earlier while we were still important to each-other
btw, some interesting thing about NAP clauses
I was trying to get Ot4e's understanding of what "NAP to turn XX + 10 turns" means
he explained to me it means that the earliest date such NAP can be cancelled is tXX+10
what is your exact agreement with CivFR?
is there a possibility they consider your NAP as being able to be void earliest at t220?
Изпратено в 12:00, петък
MZprox: if they think that they will be surprised at t210
аз: lol
I wanted ot4e to clarify this sort of clauses for me and this is how he explained it to me
Изпратено в 12:02, петък
MZprox: """meaning that NAP cancellation must be notified at least 10 turns in advance; of course NAP can't be cancelled before turn 210)."""
аз: from my practice it means something else, but it is natural to have differences in understanding
MZprox: that's what they wrote
аз: ah, good
this is how I normally treat such clause
until so far
MZprox: we notify them about th cancellation b4 t200 then it cancels at t210
аз: yes, exactly
ok then, no surprises here
so, now it is my turn to get NAP with ot4e
in the possible case that we dont get NAP with ot4e, how you see things?
MZprox: I doubt they won't sign nap, but i lso doubt they would attack you alone
аз: why alone, they will have frenchies on their side
we have borders with both on our most distant corners
Изпратено в 12:06, петък
MZprox: we will probably start the war sooner than they would attack you. it could become an interesting situation, but we won't be the one who breaks the nap with ot4e
Изпратено в 12:09, петък
MZprox: so you and me against maya, maya and aztec against you, but we can only fight maya and not aztec
but as i said they will sign nap with you, i1m sure
they might demand that you sign nap with maya too, as you said
i don1t know what then..
probably better to prepare for world war
now i1m afk for a while
Изпратено в 12:12, петък
аз: world war sounds fun
I'm off to lunch too

2metraninja · Oct 13, 2013

We need to send the NAP proposal to Poly quick.

Guidelines which MZ said they will accept are t250 NAP, OB and no help to enemies.

Sommerswerd · Oct 13, 2013

That is fine. Let's do it.

For 2metra:

Spoiler :

2metraninja · Oct 14, 2013

Here is a draft of the treaty we need to send to Apolyton:

Apolyton-CivFanatics Treaty (ACFT)

Section 1. Members of the Apolyton-CivFanatics Treaty

1.1. Team Apolyton

1.2. Team CivFanatics

Section 2. Treaty Duration and Terms

2.1. The pact cannot be canceled before the beginning of turn 250.

2.2. The members of this treaty cannot enter into agreements with third parties which interfere or may cause interference to any of its clauses.

2.4. Both members of the treaty must adhere to all clauses together.

Section 3. Non-Aggression Pact

3.1. The members agree to not declare war on the other member of this pact while this pact is in effect.

3.2. If any of the members is at war with third party, the other member agrees to not help to that third party.

3.2.1. Giving aid to a third party means giving gold and military units plus Great Generals

3.3. Both members agree to consult with the other member before gifting military units to a third party, whether they are at war with a treaty member or not, for the duration of the pact.

Section 4. Open Borders

4.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.

Section 5. Map Trading

5.1. Both members will freely gift maps to the other on request.

Section 6. Economical mutual help:

6.1. Both members agree to help each- other with preferential resources trades

Section 7. Temporary Exceptions

7.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

Section 8. Amendments

8.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

8.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members

It reflects MZ's expressed desire for no espionage clause and for narrowing the meaning of what help to enemies could consist of.

Sommerswerd · Oct 14, 2013

Looks fine. I don't like anti-espionage clauses anyway

2metraninja · Oct 16, 2013

Sending it right away.

2metraninja · Oct 16, 2013

I just now see something. In reply to the previous NAP offer we have sent to Poly, here is what we got as considerations:

Greetings,

On behalf of team Apolyton I sign this NAP treaty with it's 3.2.1 point modified:
We at this point can't promise we would have no partnership with anyone you'd happen to war with, so forbidding gold and information sharing might become too limiting in the not foreseen future.
So as 3.2.1 we suggest it is limited to 'no military unit gifting to anyone who the other party is at wat with, this includes unit upgrades of course.'

MZ of the Ottomans

PS: so the treaty ends in t200 which means t200 is not included. I just add this because sometimes it's not clear. This stands for future reference as well, as we are looking forward for a long lasting partnership.

Should we modify the clauses for help to enemies to fit with this expressed their desire? Or we send it as we intended and wait for their input?

Sommerswerd · Oct 16, 2013

I dont get the "of course this includes upgrades" ... So they are saying that it is OK for us to give their enemy gold to upgrade his own units, but not to upgrade them for him? Or that we can do the upgrade, but we have to wait until there is peace to actually give the upgraded units back.

In any case I dont think this clause is a big deal worth holding up the treaty over. Obviously they want to remain free to give gold to our enemies if they want to. we remain free to do the same.

whb · Oct 16, 2013

Sommerswerd said:
I dont get the "of course this includes upgrades" ... So they are saying that it is OK for us to give their enemy gold to upgrade his own units, but not to upgrade them for him?

I believe so. Ruling out "although you can't build mech inf yourself, if you transfer some infantry to us, we'll upgrade them to mech infs and transfer them back"

cav scout · Oct 16, 2013

Well its best that we get clarification because you know what they say about assumptions... (oh and he was being purposefully vague btw).

2metraninja · Oct 17, 2013

Sommerswerd said:
I dont get the "of course this includes upgrades" ... So they are saying that it is OK for us to give their enemy gold to upgrade his own units, but not to upgrade them for him? Or that we can do the upgrade, but we have to wait until there is peace to actually give the upgraded units back.

MZ is referring to the the possibility someone to upgrade units for someone else if the latter is not in possibility to do this upgrade himself, because he have no that technology. Just as whb said, infantries to mech infantries is not only a matter of money, but also possession of the technology required. Like Ot4e upgraded the french knights to cuirs and gave them back. I will ask for clarification or outright write the clause with my words and then discuss it.

Which case reminds me that we have a reason to consider our NAP with Ot4e void. He gave military units to third party without consulting with us as he was obliged because of our treaty.

Lets leave this freedom to MZ if he wants to not feel bind with money deals and information sharing. As Sommers said, we keep the same option to ourselves. If we use it is another thing.

2metraninja · Oct 25, 2013

Sent this:

CivFanatics Team <diplo.civfanatics@gmail.com> (sent by dimo.neykov@gmail.com)

9:54 PM (13 minutes ago)

to yton
Here is our NAP proposal for

Apolyton-CivFanatics Treaty Second Edition (ACFT2)

Section 1. Members of the Apolyton-CivFanatics Treaty Second Edition

1.1. Team Apolyton

1.2. Team CivFanatics

Section 2. Treaty Duration and Terms

2.1. The pact cannot be canceled before the beginning of turn 250.

2.2. The members of this treaty cannot enter into agreements with third parties which interfere or may cause interference to any of its clauses.

2.4. Both members of the treaty must adhere to all clauses together.

Section 3. Non-Aggression Pact

3.1. The members agree to not declare war on the other member of this pact while this pact is in effect.

3.2. If any of the members is at war with third party, the other member agrees to not help to that third party.

3.2.1. Giving aid to a third party means giving gold and military units plus Great Generals

Section 4. Open Borders

4.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.

Section 5. Map Trading

5.1. Both members will freely gift maps to the other on request.

Section 6. Economical mutual help:

6.1. Both members agree to help each- other with preferential resources trades

Section 7. Temporary Exceptions

7.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

Section 8. Amendments

8.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

8.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members

2metraninja · Feb 13, 2014

This chat we had with MZ from Apolyton tonight. Things dont look bright.

yton: hi
Изпратено в 22:40, четвъртък
yton: just a question: will you take that mayan city which is between us in this turn or the next?
it has 6-7 rifle defenders
Изпратено в 22:41, четвъртък
аз: the next
will be not wise to throw so much cavalries
yton: ok
аз: I made numbers about our army
in 4 turns we will have 25 infantry, 15 MG, 35 cavalries and 15 canons on the French front
we can either join stacks or we split - I go for their capitol from their west and you go from their north
Изпратено в 22:44, четвъртък
yton: a lot depends if we will fight with their main army in this turn or the next
аз: you think they will attack you?
yton: they might
but they really don't give much focus to this game
аз: will taking the city between us easier for you? if this will open culture for you to hit them first, I have spies prepared for disorder mission
I saw - 2 minutes turn

yton: nah.. i only asked to use my own spy for stealing this turn or the next
but i lost two spies in mayan territory this turn after the reload
really sucks
аз: yes, and last turn before reload CP lost 3
not sure about now
I have to ask you if you really extended NAP with CP to t240
Изпратено в 22:50, четвъртък
аз: last time we spoke about the possibility of us being on 2-front war you gave assurances it will be only for short period - like 10 turns as your NAP with CP ends t230 and I was really hoping this will be the case
CP continue to amass army on our border
now it is them the Number 1 army
yton: i did. i only made some condition if they would start to pursue cultural victory then the nap would be revokable
аз: this is really bad situation for our team
Изпратено в 22:52, четвъртък
yton: excuse me if I don't feel to bad for the score leader . especially since i have to consider you have uciv very close to you.. or just playing plain stupidly
аз: but this is serious turn of the course
Изпратено в 22:54, четвъртък
yton: you see we were small and quite low in production, BUT: we had the best science capabilities.. yet it means nothing as our rivals has stolen everything from " support" civs for very cheap.. now we lost our science lead and our production is much less than half of yours
Изпратено в 22:55, четвъртък
аз: hmm, and the best solution to this you see is allowing CP to rip us apart in peace while we are sending the bulk of our army to the French front as we agreed initially?
yton: uciv completely ignored the situation.. they don't spend on spying, they don1t put defensive spies on their cities with your religion, they don't use counterespionage.. they are just helping you big times with their passivity
аз: I thought it was CP who you are afraid of and to weaken them was the whole idea of this war with CivFR
well, this about your changed mind about CP is good to know
do you have changed mind about other things too?
especially the course and outcome of the French war?
yton: nah, it was just a little rant about what uciv does.. almost the same as maya except they are still playing
Изпратено в 22:59, четвъртък
yton: i did not changed my mind, but the situation has changed with your war with cp.
Изпратено в 23:00, четвъртък
yton: it's quite difficult situation, but i still just would be happy if maya would be gone as soon as possible
аз: oh, is it? I was hoping it was you who was going to keep them in check and not allow them to send whole army to our back
Изпратено в 23:02, четвъртък
yton: there wer very likely scenarios and they did not happened.. I expected aztec joining the mayan war, but quite differently as they did
I also expected uciv getting more active, either joining against the maya or after the aztec war declaration against the aztec
Изпратено в 23:05, четвъртък
аз: but what we have to do with Uciv? I told them we are OK if they take the city most close to them and they said they prefer to not really attack CivFR
Изпратено в 23:06, четвъртък
yton: these were just examples to show that the play did not go along our logic
аз: about CP, I cant think of a great logic reason why to ask them to declare war to CP - they are dead last of the score and dont even have a common border with CP
Изпратено в 23:07, четвъртък
yton: i guess you meant uciv. from your dealings we had to assume that your relations are good, and you said they were angry on cp.
аз: this is what they said
Изпратено в 23:09, четвъртък
yton: they give you money, they shared the wpc troops with you, they allowed you to steal for very cheap, they gave you favorably deals (like the gp trade) and who knows what else. helping you in this war did not seem to be far fetched
аз: so we thought too
Изпратено в 23:12, четвъртък
yton: anyway, my point is: I would had preferred to split the maya easily with about equal contribution, but right now due to the aztec attack on you we take most of the cost and the risk. if this will not change drastically and we won't get compensated then we can't allow ourselves to give "gifts" to the already score leader. Yes this war besides slowing us down on the mayan fron it also " good" for us as our two main rivals banging each other..
Изпратено в 23:16, четвъртък
аз: from my point of view, things have gone really weird. first you come and ask me to prepare and join war against CivFR. I tell you we might not be able to send our whole army against them because we dont have NAP with CP. You say -quote: "I will be OK you to send smaller army given the Aztec threat" and you calm my worries that it will be only some 10 turns we need to hold against CP. but now, French play passively, the war is going fine without much help from our side and you decide it is nice move to give NAP extension to CP, so we are put in even worse situation and we must start contributing to the French war even less if we want secure back, and you will use this as a reason why you will go back on your words about equal land split of the French lands with us.
Изпратено в 23:26, четвъртък
аз: not the end of the world, but totally not what I expected
Изпратено в 23:28, четвъртък
yton: put some things in order: I even said that i might do this invasion alone, yes, but then there was no word about equal split. we were talking about equal split when you promised at least60-70 troops which might be late 1-2 turns from t210. but now is t219 and you say 4 turns till that army gets here. if i clash with the main mayan army then possibly all that left for you is to walk over the rest of the cities. Second, about the nap: it's quite old one, and honestly i did not expect that any of the main power would go into this kind of war.. it was simply not logical. I thought we all keep peace till maya is gone then no more nap and logically the one with the best chance to win would be the target. Uciv was a distracting thing in this view, but still
Изпратено в 23:33, четвъртък
аз: in 4 turns we can have not 60-70, but 90 modern on the front, otherwise, we have 50-60 since the start of the war. yes, they are not modern, nor in a single stack. as for the NAP with CP, I wonder if it was so old one, how you were talking about keeping CP in check and joining war against them
Изпратено в 23:36, четвъртък
аз: ok, I got your PoV. will have to discuss the situation with team and then decide what we do
yton: I only talked about going war against cp if they gift unity to maya or if maya would allow them to just take their cities.
аз: no. I wont go digging history, but I asked you what if we dont get NAP with CP and you said we must hold only to t230
yton: yes I wanted to you too see my pov. I understand yours too . I am not taking back my word and i understand why you are not participating in this war as it was expected
аз: anyway, I will discuss with the team. it will be quite sore and ironic, as it was much voices against joining this war with you, but I was telling everyone how things cant go wrong when we are dealing with gentlemans
Изпратено в 23:40, четвъртък
yton: I am quite certain i did nto promised you that I would join a war against aztec on your side. i see no reason why would i had done that
аз: to get me on your boat to fight war with CivFR?

2metraninja · Feb 13, 2014

After short break MZ said this:

yton: I don't know.. there might had been a sentiment on this, but I don't think I made a direct promise on that. back then we both expected that maya and aztec will form a strong alliance while uciv was genrally a non-factor. right now we rather see you and uciv as potential allies and as is since maya is weaker we consider you a bigger threat. might be a mis lead too.. But you made me a bit about unsure about what we have said a long time ago.. you might interpreted our stance wrong and i might be my fault too.. so for this I now promise that I will be less demanding about your participations in the mayan front.
Изпратено в 23:50, четвъртък

And then went offline.

2metraninja · Feb 13, 2014

So, MZ came online again and this is what e spoke after:

аз: what means "less demanding"? do we as first point have our deal about equal split of the French lands active?
Изпратено в 23:53, четвъртък
yton: yes, I mean that we keep the about equal split, but i still expect at least half the army we sent in
Изпратено в 23:54, четвъртък
аз: we must put this straight. I am about to upgrade 30-40 modern units just to get army on the French front, instead of doing so on the CP front where power number 1 is gathering
so I need to know it is worth
Изпратено в 23:57, четвъртък
yton: i want to take two cities in the east of pisse dru, possible destroying them.-no matter if you come or not. after that i planned to calculate our chances, possibly stop and witing for either aircraft or for you cavalries
tbh If i were you I'd focus on cp
аз: you know from Ot4e something or you hope you take french lands alone?
Изпратено в 0:00, петък
yton: i expect french to retreat even deeper and my army is stagnating right now, so I will not continue the war, taking a pause
you would have time to catch up
аз: wont you use this as a reason why you consider our deal about equal split of Maya no longer active?
Изпратено в 0:02, петък
yton: if our main armies clash while I take these two-not so great btw-cities I expect either a big compensation in gold from you and/or you would do most of the fighting in the second half of war. But if the more likely scenario happens: maya continue to retreat then there will be place for your participation too
аз: sounds fair
Изпратено в 0:06, петък
аз: btw, I now checked our diplomacy - in our diplomacy log the NAP treaty with you is showing as up to t250. do we made some additional tuning?
yton: you sent me a proposal with t250 but i answered that it should be t240
аз: that is OK, I have memories about something like this
but had to check, as I saw the proposal was to t240
will we have time for a second maya war until t240?
Изпратено в 0:10, петък
yton: most likely
but about what will happen after t240, no idea yet
аз:
Изпратено в 0:13, петък
аз: how far you are from tanks?
and your offer to steal them from you is still active, right?
Изпратено в 0:17, петък
yton: I offered that to even the playfield a bit between you. it is limited in time and number of techs, so it's not like a promise you can take anything from us from now. I'd say two tchs and among those we currently have or get in the next five turns
like combustion and electricity, we will have those
аз: but of course it is not unlimited, I consider it only limited to Tanks (Industrialization) path
yton: I think I will pursue air force before tanks
аз: aha, makes sense
yton: but that's just my preference

Sommerswerd · Feb 15, 2014

To me it seems that MZ is starting to see us as the main threat, but he knows he is locked into a war with us as allies and he needs us for now. He suspects we are courting UCiv to be our new BFF when Mayans (and CP) are defeated. None of this comes as a suprise though does it?

If we have the espy power to keep tech pace with Poly and we still outproduce them then we are in good shape. The one who focus on :science:

always loses to the :hammers:

leader.

2metraninja · Feb 16, 2014

That MZ sees us as main threat is true to some degree. But also he is able to take on French alone already - he saw they are not fighting as fierce as they could. SO now he was trying to maybe re-negotiate the land split. I think I managed to get that back to the equal split.

What is worrying me he tells in straight he wont attack CP at t240 unless something really urgent comes (like CP building SS parts like crazy). SO he basically rejected alliance against them. Are we then free and even obliged to ask CP to ally us to get MZ down? If we come to space ship race I think they both - CP and Poly will have the upper hand with their super beaker output.

Sommerswerd · Feb 17, 2014

2metraninja said:
That MZ sees us as main threat is true to some degree. But also he is able to take on French alone already - he saw they are not fighting as fierce as they could. SO now he was trying to maybe re-negotiate the land split. I think I managed to get that back to the equal split.

What is worrying me he tells in straight he wont attack CP at t240 unless something really urgent comes (like CP building SS parts like crazy). SO he basically rejected alliance against them. Are we then free and even obliged to ask CP to ally us to get MZ down? If we come to space ship race I think they both - CP and Poly will have the upper hand with their super beaker output.

The deciding factor in Space race is the :espionage:

to sabotage your rivals parts at the last moment. Or to switch his Civics while he tries to build the SS parts to slow his production down, or to throw his cities into :yuck:

and

to rob him of production. Most important is the :espionage:

to know where he builds the parts.

2metraninja · Feb 23, 2014

And at about the same time we spoke with Ot4e, I started speaking with MZ:

Още ▼
аз: ot4e is trying to get me on his train to attack you on t240
Изпратено в 19:51, неделя
yton: and that is goodfor who?
аз: I guess for him, otherwise why he would propose it
yton: I'd advise against signing a long nap with any greater power
аз: he is again the same song: "we are the smallest, we are the weakest, we need some stimulus to be at equal stance with you two"
yton: other than that we can allgetinto war with each ther
LOL on that
right now I consider aztec to be in the best position
аз: I doubt such a romantic scenario where we can do real FFA and let the best win
yton: I knowthat, but we still should keep our options open and go aganst the one who is the true threat on us.. by getting closest towin the game
if the two of youattacked us..you still wouldn't have enough power to finish meoff
same for any of us
even 2vs1 is not enough
weakening one,that's working. butannihilating is muchmore difficult, but without that the goal is questionable
Изпратено в 22:16, неделя
yton: let's say the two of you are fighting with us and aztec starts to build the spaceship..
аз: hmm
you think it will be about spaceship building?
I will laugh my ass off if such a violent game ends in a space ship win
yton: it will come to that.. spaceshipor culture it doesn't matter
ofc one can use spies to slow onedown, but that's quite expensive
аз: I must admit the only other such multi-team game I played in ended in a spaceship win
yton: maybe i willcause my downfall by refusing to sign nap after t240..
аз: I get your point about having options open
yton: but if so, then so beit
аз: it will work in each direction
yton: btw t240 is not a hard limit, but it means, that I will onlysign short naps
аз: so you say you dont believe in a scenario where the 2 gang on the third superpower in attempt to divide it and just then to try to compete in 1vs1?
yton: tbh Idon't know.. but even against maya it's difficult
Изпратено в 22:22, неделя
yton: I plan to increase mymilitary from t230
Imean heavily
Изпратено в 22:23, неделя
аз: I would hate if ot4e wins the game
he is great player, but he is also arrogant in a way I dont like
Изпратено в 22:27, неделя
yton: I agree
аз:
yton: what about uciv btw?
I'd like to remove them from game, only so we could see clearer
Изпратено в 22:29, неделя
аз: we have NAP with them
and then, it wont be easy at all
for sure more hard than CivFR
at least they play their turns
plus, we are having any chance for getting on par in the techs in the near future only by stealing from them
Изпратено в 22:32, неделя
аз: I can guess how it looks from outside, but they are not our minions, we can only make suggestions and sometimes they agree, sometimes not
yton: yeah, thanksfor stealing the pentagon fromus btw.. :/
аз: we talk to them
yton: stupid stealings
аз: heh, will we get it?
yton: seems so
if it would take you one turn longer Imight had bought it, but not this way
аз: oh, you did not thought tech stealing to be stupid when you stole 4-5 techs from RB back then, didnt you?
it is part of the game, we have to live with it and adapt
yton: it was 3 techs and we actually did a lot for that. we hid our intention, we used hidden missionaries finished roads in the last turn etc just to be sure it will besuccesfull and the stealing rate was much worse
аз: I am not happy we have to steal to keep in par, but such is the situation
yton: uciv should either defend from spying or do spying for themselves too
by not doing anything, they just help you for northing
аз: I would had prefered 100 times to have your research power, but alas, I have to steal
it is not for nothing, we pay money
yton: myresearchpower worths nothing..
аз: so it is symbiosis
we pay good amount of money actually
still, better ratio for us stealing than self-research
yton: for sure..getting assemblyline for 2k espionage
аз: 2780 I think
yton: whileit took me 9000 rp
аз: + 2K gold in cash
yton: anyway
аз: 9K espionage for RP ???
but how you got so much?
yton: i meant9k research point
аз: you got crazy good price for your GSpy too btw. GSpy which you got for free because we sponsored you and did not sponsored CP
you got SoL and Kremlin with our cooperation too
but yes, anyway
we are losing cities big time to CP
yton: our dealings were fair, and speaking about deals:
we needto talkaboutmayaland
but not today
аз: yes, can you show what you calculated?
yton: I will have to go soon
аз: you said you had made some work on division
yton: I can't checkright now, but I rememberthis:
Изпратено в 22:42, неделя
yton: so far I consider we got 51 points (includingthe smallcity we will get next turn) you got 17 points and maya has 84 points left
I gave 3-12 pointstoeachcity
аз: sounds OK
yton: but it is complicated.. muchoverlapping and geography too should be considered somehow
you can getcrazy cultre
so if we agree we also should agree onnot doing culture push.. but does it matter if we will get into war soon.. ?
аз: lol
geography must be considered for sure
yton: I scored the cities according to: availabel food, available rier tiles, number of towns or soon to be twons villages. minus if there is big overlap, + if those are big rich cities, academiesetc
аз: I agree to those criterias
only for the minus with overlap I dont understand
normally the first ring is secured
yton: i mean one city could be 8 but since loses towns tothe neighbour it get only 7
аз: ah, yes, I count such things by half their points
yton: I've spent only 20-25 minson this,so Idid not made exactcalculateions, just approximate
аз: same with my estimations on the RB map
which you said are not accurate.
we dont really need 100% accurate, approximate is good enough
yton: just wanted to know how muchcities we would get. also note: there are 3 more mayan cities we can't see, Iconsidered them 3-3-3 pointsof worth
ihave to go now. ttyl
аз: sounds OK with 3 points, if they are not seen, they are settled late on not so great sites
ok, ttyl
gn
Изпратено в 22:52, неделя

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Any comments on that guys?

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