Forest Wilderness Challenge

[Quechua]

I have an idea for a variant for players looking for a challenge, or those who are stuck with the same early-game tactics (early-rush, pyramids, etc).

Variant:
We are proud of our land and don't want to deface it through urban sprawl or cutting into the earth. We rely on wood for production, but we are careful not to deplete our forests. We respect our neighbors' territory, but if we are forced to defend we will not be passive.

-No cottages
-No mines, except on resources
-No forest chopping, except for resources

Optional:
-No quarries
-No mining or chopping even for resources

Forbidden Civics:
-Universal Suffrage
-Nationhood
-Caste System
-Slavery

-No declarations of war. We may fight an offensive war if we are attacked.

Victory:
Diplomatic isn't directly made more difficult by our variant, and Time is lame, but any other victory type is valid.

Map:
I had a cold-climate lakes map in mind, but any pangea-type map is fine. I want the player to have to struggle for land, and I don't want the Colossus and Lighthouse to be too dominant.

 

[Fetch]

How is this a strategy tip and trick?

 

[Quechua]

I like your signature.

 

[MrFelony]

i like your apt post about his signature . If you thought, you'd realize that this is no different than the other huge number of games like this that already occupy the strategy and tips forum. this game would require much higher level of strategy due to the constraints. sounds interesting Quechua. It seems like an engineer/priest SE economy would work pretty well here

 

[darrelljs]

That's remarkably similar to Sirian's Miller Time SG. The civics list is a bit different though, since his was based on a pun .

Darrell

 

[tycoonist]

why not launch it as a succession game

 

[johncross21]

if I were to play. I would rush the open spaces. That would negate most of the handicaps associated with not chopping

I would also choose woodsman promotion which might be fun

Lumbermills are pretty good hammer producers so machinery crucial

might also goad my neighbours into war. bad relations with everybody by spying. once I had a few captured cities with cottages it back to business as nornal

coastal cities would be good (especially if financial)

Not sure why certain civics are banned

 

[Quechua]

That's remarkably similar to Sirian's Miller Time SG.

Wow, you're right...I'm a little disapointed.

I didn't read too far in (I will), but that game didn't feel like what I had in mind. I wanted a much more intense landgrab that would test the limited production, no whipping/chopping, and no declaring war. I was thinking a higher difficulty than Prince - I started my game on Emperor - definitely not a huge map, and definitely not a time victory. As far as victory I was thinking space, cultural, or cultural-heavy domination.

Not sure why certain civics are banned

I only slightly limited the potential food surplus by not allowing chopping for grassland farms. I don't want the player to use this to bypass the limited production through slavery and nationhood. Suffrage is another production rushing civic, hence the ban, but this one isn't so important.

If I allow caste, the player can simply farm up most of the cities and completely ignore the forests and lakes. If you want specialists (and you will), I want you to build the required buildings. Less importantly, in BtS, Caste also makes 2nd and 3rd generation workshops more productive than forests and lumbermills, which doesn't seem right for the variant.

It seems like an engineer/priest SE economy would work pretty well here

This was my thought as well. Founding religions and prophet wonders give you culture which helps you grab more land, and then settling the resulting prophets helps with your limited production and commerce.

 

[johncross21]

i thought another good game variation would be to add to score for every forest left standing at the end. however no idea what the appropriate reward is for a balanced game.

 

[Kesshi]

I have an idea for a variant for players looking for a challenge, or those who are stuck with the same early-game tactics (early-rush, pyramids, etc).

Variant:
We are proud of our land and don't want to deface it through urban sprawl or cutting into the earth. We rely on wood for production, but we are careful not to deplete our forests. We respect our neighbors' territory, but if we are forced to defend we will not be passive.

-No cottages
-No mines, except on resources
-No forest chopping, except for resources

Optional:
-No quarries
-No mining or chopping even for resources

Forbidden Civics:
-Universal Suffrage
-Nationhood
-Caste System
-Slavery

-No declarations of war. We may fight an offensive war if we are attacked.

Quechua,

Would you think that there is something wrong with me if I told you that the first thing I thought of was burning man*?

In all seriousness, I thought of an environmentalist game something like this, but with different restrictions than you, Quechua. My restrictions would be as follows:

No removing forests and jungles.
You must always pay to have forests replaced when you have the funds available.
No building improvements on a tile that a forest and/or jungles can grow on the next turn.
If a forest and/or jungle grows one tile away from an improvement, you must pillage it to let the forest grow.
You must switch to Environmentalism once it becomes available.
You must pillage all unacceptable improvements in your culture. Be them from culture pushes, or cities you capture from war.
No work boats.
You are permitted trade for resources, but it will be tough given that you can only permanently work resources on desert lands. (Or is there another tile forests cannot grow on that contain resources?)
No building cities on forests or jungles.**

Some odd restrictions, I know. I wonder how well I could manage.

My initial strategy would be like this:

Focus on great merchants (great merchants = food) and focus on developing a strong economy. Possibly by heading towards currency then guilds and banking picking up Machinery somewhere in the mix. Early Alphabet will be a must for both tech trading and spy training. Spies might be more use in this game than others if enough technology can be stolen.

All in all, these seem like fun games with unique restrictions. Thanks for the encouragement Quechua.

*If you don't know what burning man is, you can google/wikipedia search for it. But be careful, some pictures might be inappropriate for all viewers.

**I'm not 100% sure about the "no building on jungles/forests" restriction. Part of me wants it there for the challenge, and part of me is thinking "That's exactly where a bunch of treehuggers would build their civilization!"

 

[johncross21]

You must always pay to have forests replaced when you have the funds available

I wasn't aware you could buy forests

 

[johncross21]

No removing forests and jungles.
No building improvements on a tile that a forest and/or jungles can grow on the next turn.
If a forest and/or jungle grows one tile away from an improvement, you must pillage it to let the forest grow.
You must pillage all unacceptable improvements in your culture. Be them from culture pushes, or cities you capture from war.
You are permitted trade for resources, but it will be tough given that you can only permanently work resources on desert lands. (Or is there another tile forests cannot grow on that contain resources?)
No building cities on forests or jungles

another things trees don't like - roads . unfortunately you can't pillage roads when buildt. however you do need roads to connect resources and cities so an abolute ban might be out of order

still see a tendency to avoid forest so no cities unless there is at least one forest in the fat cross

 

[Quechua]

Kesshi, that sounds like a great idea for a game. If you want to play out a game using those rules, you're welcome to post a report in this thread or your own. I'd be very interested.

I was sort of thinking an environmental theme for my rules, but I wasn't quite thinking of a burning man civilization (is that an oxymoron?). I was thinking more of an American frontier or northwoods theme. I think for your game the sole exception to chopping forests should be for the 'spice' resource.

In case my rules weren't quite clear, I also require pillaging towns and mines in captured enemy territory (I know johncross mentioned this). But you can chop as much jungle as you want. Don't save the rainforest!

 

[johncross21]

Quechua

what level will you play on

with lakes and cold there's no shortage of trees it gonna be a tough ask whichever variant you play

john

 

[Quechua]

I already started a game on emperor. I'm playing on a standard size cold Lakes map on quick speed. I probably will post a report unless I suffer a particularly embarassing defeat

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Sorry if I missed it but was chopping jungles banned?

I'd be interested to see a forest preserve economy under Environmentalism.

 

[MrFelony]

he can chop jungle

 

[Kesshi]

I wasn't aware you could buy forests

johncross21,

Sometimes you will get a random event that a forest has burnt down. I think there are three options. One where you pay to have the forest replanted for a marginal cost (usually less than 20 gold), two where you pay gold, but the forest is still cleared, and three where you shrug your shoulders and say, "What can I do?" then you get a temporary unhappiness in the city nearby. If there aren't three options, there are only two, and it's just the first and the third. I'm sorry, I forget exactly.

another things trees don't like - roads . unfortunately you can't pillage roads when buildt. however you do need roads to connect resources and cities so an abolute ban might be out of order

still see a tendency to avoid forest so no cities unless there is at least one forest in the fat cross

I have seen trees grow onto undeveloped plots with roads. I don't know if they are less likely to grow onto a plot with a road/railroad built, but I've see trees expand onto both. If you have more info on trees spreading onto roads/railroads, I'd love to hear more.

I already started a game on emperor. I'm playing on a standard size cold Lakes map on quick speed. I probably will post a report unless I suffer a particularly embarassing defeat

Quechua,

Good luck! I'll be anxiously awaiting an entertaining report.

 

[Quechua]

Sorry to disapoint those looking for some forest preserve and National Park action, but I don't have BtS yet (I know, I know...). Hopefully someone else will try a game that demonstrates a late commerce boost with environmentalism. We'll see something similar though with Electricity and mills - if I last that long.

I chose to play as Washington of the Americans (Fin/Org)

I didn't know I was going to be reporting this game, so I played it with a Minnesota theme, which is my home state - sorry but deal with it The lakes, forests, and 'tundra' do fit very well with Minnesota.

I don't see any reason not to settle in place, and settling 'Saint Paul' reveals a rice tile in my western fat cross, and I pop a scout from the hut.

I start with Fishing and Agriculture, so I only need Mining for the gold and AH for the pigs. I start a worker and I work the lake, setting research to Hunting. Hunting will make AH cheaper, and I plan to interrupt my worker build when it comes in to build a second scout. And it's very important that it opens up Archery. I have time to research Archery and Mining before the worker is complete, and then I can crank out archers while growing St Paul to size 3 in preparation for a settler build. This is important because I won't have much time for building defense later and I want to build archers, not warriors, during the growth window.

It turns out I didn't need to build a second scout after all. I send my scout east and my warrior west, and both pop additional scouts from huts. I have a fertile river to my wast where I plan to build Minneapolis. Victoria is just SW of the site, and she has what looks like a crappy tundra lake capital, so hopefully I'll make it in time.

Not quite, but I'm not surprised. I decide to settle on the floodplain tile to the SE instead, which will puts cultural pressure on the spices and Vicky's city at radius 3.

The site marked 'crabthief' would steal the spices directly as well as a crab from Vicky's capital, but this is a very low priority city. Monty is very close to my east, and I immediately start a second settler in St Paul to head in this direction. After I build a monument in Minneapolis, I plan to start a settler there to head to the NW shore of the inland sea just north of my cities (I'm calling the sea 'Lake Superior'). This city on Lake Superior will compete culturally with Gandhi - this is a very cramped map.

After I finish AH, but before I found Minneapolis, I research Bronze and the Wheel. BW isn't the monster tech it usually is since we can't chop or whip, but I still want to reveal copper before I start settling my cities. I get lucky and get copper in the fat cross of my capital!

Now that I've researched the necessary worker techs, I go Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood. All the early religions are taken, Hinduism and Judaism by Gandhi, and Buddhism by Monte. But I plan to start the Oracle in St Paul once I've completed my second settler, grabbing a Confucian holy city to help expand my tight borders (see why Archery was necessary? No production time for defense, except during the growth window).

My second settler founds 'Rochester' on Monte's border, and goes Monument->Archer. I saw Jaguars heading for the barbarian city on the Lake Superior coast, so Rochester will be competing for the gems and horse. I'm considering putting my fifth city (I founded 'Duluth' with the settler from Minneapolis), on the site on top of the dye marked 'risky city.' Together the two cities can take the territory away from Teotihuacan and the newly captured barb city.

I miss Confucianism by a few turns, but I do complete the Oracle, grabbing Metal Casting (I researched pottery -> writing in the meantime). The crappy workshops from MC will actually be quite useful in Minneapolis, since they convert food to hammers in 1 to 1 ratio. We will get another try at a holy city with the prophet from the Oracle.

After Writing I go for Alphabet for obvious reasons. Our warrior and three scouts have pretty much mapped the entire globe by now, and we have also met Qin, Alex, and Cathy.

That was before...

...And this is after. We have also acquired Monotheism on the turn of the screenshot, so we have that over most of the AI as well.

After Alphabet I was considering going Drama for theaters, for opening up the Taoist holy city lightbulb, and to get to Music first for the Great Artist. But once Rochester's borders popped, Monte went to "We have enough on our hands," so my plans change.

St Paul cranks out an axe and spear, and Rochester a third archer before Monte declares. Rochester stole the horses, but we may face some previously existing chariots as well as some Jaguars. No time for barracks unfortunately.

Here's Minnesota in 825BC, the turn of the declaration. I plan to grab the barb city north of Lake Superior, which will make a great commerce city with Gems, Silk, and water tiles - but I may not survive that long. I haven't played past this turn (and won't for a couple days...Happy Halloween!), and I've included the save.

 

[vicawoo]

I tried it out a bit. Prince difficulty, randomed Saladin, with whom I have become quite proficient.

Didn't plan as much as usual. First turn moved onto a plains hill marble, which in retrospect is why oracle finished so fast. Had pigs, but decided to go settler first since I was so far from animal husbandry.
Ignored bronze working (traded for it), went animal husbandry, mining when I saw a nearby double gold (actually triple, but not enough food for 3).
Accidently founded hinduism next on the way to oracle. I'm spiritual, so I'm teching the monotheism route. Actually had to delay oracle to get writing, then decided to go alphabet. Backfilled, and with a lot of plantation resources and a dire need for commerce, I'm beelining calendar.

Have 6 cities, settler looking to fill in the crack past shaka and before churchill and asoka. Bronze in my 2nd city, and shaka looks like he's lacking, so I can just kill him.

My thoughts overall, workers are devalued early, monarchy is devalued, code of laws somewhat devalued since courthouses are so expensive. Without doing something silly like get pyramids (incidentally, my 4th city has stone nearby, but I haven't decided on the quarry rule). Libraries for scientists are important.

My thoughts are, imperialistic and organized (or creative if you're getting pyramids), and possibly industrious is the way to go for this. Imperialistic settler starts are definitely the way to get a leg up. Teching is either by goldsilvergems, plantations, scientists, or trade route economy. Trade route economy might be the way to go on a little higher difficulties (industrious), since you're mostly building farms. With enough alternative tech fuel, you could shoot for constitution through liberalism.

Or on lower difficulties, you can just get catapults and conquer the world. Oh wait, you're not supposed to do that. Er... Basically, production is limited early, no whipping and chopping makes wonders and granaries early much harder. And courthouses take forever to build. There's not much to build mid game, so just shoot for pacifism.