Free Will and the Nature of Heaven

[Fr8monkey]

Most major religious traditions with a concept of Heaven - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Baha'i - hold that God is good. Yet it is undeniable that evil and suffering exist in this world, even though a truly good God would not allow such things. In a partial attempt to resolve this dilemma, apologists for these traditions often rely on the so-called "free will defense". For the sake of arguement let us say, in the religious realm, free will implies that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual's will and choices.

Now the nature of heaven will suffice, to say, exist in one of 4 realms:

1. There is both sin and free will in Heaven.
2. There is sin but no free will in Heaven.
3. There is free will but no sin in Heaven.
4. There is neither free will nor sin in Heaven.

Together, these four options exhaust all possibilities, and therefore one of them must be true. The only remaining question, then, is which of the four is the correct one.

(1) is unacceptable to Heaven-believing theists, and I know of no theist who disputes that conclusion.

(2) is also argued by thiests and will not be considered because sin cannot exist in the presence of the Almighty.

(4) is likewise unsatisfactory because it would make Heaven an undesirable goal for many because God wants beings who freely choose to love him and not "robots" programmed to do so.

(3). But theists who accept this solution have stepped into a trap. Now consider this argument:

(i) By (3) above, it is possible for God to create free-willed beings without the possibility of evil.
(ii) According to the free will theodicy, evil arises from the actions of free-willed beings.
(iii) By (I) and (II), God deliberately chose to create free-willed beings who would commit evil acts, even though he had the option of doing otherwise.
Conclusion: God wanted evil to exist.


And a being that would want evil to exist is itself evil. This contradicts the tenet of theism which states that God is good.


Your thoughts

 

[holy king]

religious belief systems are often illogical and inconsistent.

 

[Bobbtjoe]

1. There is both sin and free will in Heaven.
2. There is sin but no free will in Heaven.
3. There is free will but no sin in Heaven.
4. There is neither free will nor sin in Heaven.

I believe you will gain knowledge when you get to heaven. This prevents you from sinning.

 

[Bill3000]

And a being that would want evil to exist is itself evil.

That doesn't necessarily follow. It could be possible that a world in which evil exists is the best of all possible worlds.

Also, Heaven is not the same thing as the physical universe...

 

[Greizer85]

I believe you will gain knowledge when you get to heaven. This prevents you from sinning.

Then why not give us that knowledge right here and now? Why play silly games when eternal damnation/salvation is at stake?

 

[Gustave5436]

I believe you will gain knowledge when you get to heaven. This prevents you from sinning.

According to the story of Genesis, it is the gaining of knowledge which caused humanity to sin in the first place. In order to remove sin from heaven, it would be much more plausible that its denizens would have their knowledge removed, not added to.

 

[Bobbtjoe]

Then why not give us that knowledge right here and now? Why play silly games when eternal damnation/salvation is at stake?

exactly! Those who don't deserve go to hell.


(I have noticed lots of athiests on CFF)

 

[Bobbtjoe]

According to the story of Genesis, it is the gaining of knowledge which caused humanity to sin in the first place. In order to remove sin from heaven, it would be much more plausible that its denizens would have their knowledge removed, not added to.

that works as well

 

[Fr8monkey]

I believe you will gain knowledge when you get to heaven. This prevents you from sinning.

Though this argument is the most serious strike against Heaven, other problems exist with the idea as well. For instance: Wouldn't Heaven get boring eventually? Most religions that believe in such a place hold it to be a realm of perfect peace and idyllic contentment, where nothing ever goes wrong and where all the desires of its inhabitants are fulfilled. And there is no doubt that an arriving soul would find such a place to be very beautiful and would be very happy - at least for a little while. But it could not be long before a saved soul would look around at his heavenly surroundings and say, "Okay, now what?"

The point is this. How can beings such as humans not be bored if we have no work, no challenges, no accomplishments? What is there to do in Heaven? If you play a game of golf there, will you hit a hole in one every time? If you cultivate a garden, will it always give forth a profusion of beautiful plants and flowers regardless of how much or how little care you put into it? If you try to make new friends, does it really matter who you come in contact with, since every saved soul is just as loving and gracious as every other? It is easy to see how pointless such an existence would be, how rapidly it would become an intolerable monotony. Humans need obstacles to surmount, deeds to accomplish, new experiences to be had to make their life worthwhile, and Heaven offers none of these things.

 

[Bobbtjoe]

Though this argument is the most serious strike against Heaven, other problems exist with the idea as well. For instance: Wouldn't Heaven get boring eventually? Most religions that believe in such a place hold it to be a realm of perfect peace and idyllic contentment, where nothing ever goes wrong and where all the desires of its inhabitants are fulfilled. And there is no doubt that an arriving soul would find such a place to be very beautiful and would be very happy - at least for a little while. But it could not be long before a saved soul would look around at his heavenly surroundings and say, "Okay, now what?"

The point is this. How can beings such as humans not be bored if we have no work, no challenges, no accomplishments? What is there to do in Heaven? If you play a game of golf there, will you hit a hole in one every time? If you cultivate a garden, will it always give forth a profusion of beautiful plants and flowers regardless of how much or how little care you put into it? If you try to make new friends, does it really matter who you come in contact with, since every saved soul is just as loving and gracious as every other? It is easy to see how pointless such an existence would be, how rapidly it would become an intolerable monotony. Humans need obstacles to surmount, deeds to accomplish, new experiences to be had to make their life worthwhile, and Heaven offers none of these things.

Mabye it does. Have you ever been to heaven?

 

[cardgame]

Mabye it does. Have you ever been to heaven?

That matters not in the context he was using; any place that doesn't have obstacles, problems, etc. for us to solve/overcome, whatever, inevitably becomes boring, monotonous and generally NOT paradise.

 

[Fr8monkey]

According to the story of Genesis, it is the gaining of knowledge which caused humanity to sin in the first place. In order to remove sin from heaven, it would be much more plausible that its denizens would have their knowledge removed, not added to.

That is another point. If God knew that Adam and Eve would gain knowledge from the tree (because He is all knowing and all seeing), Why not give them the knowledge to begin with? Just an excuse for the Free Will arguement to start with.

 

[Greizer85]

exactly! Those who don't deserve go to hell.


(I have noticed lots of athiests on CFF)

Why should anyone deserve anything? If God could have made us to have both free will and access to heaven from the start, for all of us, there are no excuses. Well, there is one, but you don't want to hear it.

Spoiler :

Read My Lips: Demented Sadism.

Edit: Some Jehovah's witnesses gave me an interesting answer once when I asked, "wouldn't God's omniscience adversely affect my free will?" It was, "He could see your future, but He chooses not to". It would explain many things, but I'm not sure I'd like all the paths it could lead to.

 

[Gustave5436]

That is another point. If God knew that Adam and Eve would gain knowledge from the tree (because He is all knowing and all seeing), Why not give them the knowledge to begin with? Just an excuse for the Free Will arguement to start with.

Because one of the things that separated God from humanity was knowledge; he had it, they didn't. God's authority over humanity was therefore stronger before it had knowledge than after, and as God is absolutely obsessed with power, he became very angry with humanity for, effectively, rebelling against his tyranny, banishing them from the Garden and condemning them to a world filled with evil.

God doesn't care about free will. He can't; by demanding that people submit to his authority, and by threatening them with eternal damnation in Hades if they fail to do so, he is coercing them into obeying him, and this coercion necessarily precludes a person from having free will.

 

[Greizer85]

God doesn't care about free will. He can't; by demanding that people submit to his authority, and by threatening them with eternal damnation in Hades if they fail to do so, he is coercing them into obeying him, and this coercion necessarily precludes a person from having free will.

I think the point is that we still have the free will to choose between Heaven and Hell. The threatening is all for the greater good, just to nudge us in the right direction; God just loves the smell of coercion in the morning. Personally I'd rather be the Devil's equal any day, than a slave of God. Even I have that much anarchist in me.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Because one of the things that separated God from humanity was knowledge; he had it, they didn't. God's authority over humanity was therefore stronger before it had knowledge than after, and as God is absolutely obsessed with power, he became very angry with humanity for, effectively, rebelling against his tyranny, banishing them from the Garden and condemning them to a world filled with evil.

Then why the temptation of putting the knowledge in the garden in the first place? If Adam and Eve had no "knowledge" of good and evil, Why put the temptation there to begin with? You can't logicly punish someone for not knowing the difference between good and bad. You don't put a candy bar in front of a child, tell them not to touch it, walk away and then beat them after they eat it.

 

[Berzerker]

1. There is both sin and free will in Heaven.

sounds right to me, Satan "fell" from Heaven so sin and free will were present then

2. There is sin but no free will in Heaven.

cant have sin without free will, thats what the apple was all about - the knowledge of good and evil

3. There is free will but no sin in Heaven.

that dont make sense, free will is required for sin to exist and the wars of heaven show it aint some magical place where free will does not translate into sin

4. There is neither free will nor sin in Heaven.

god lacks free will too? If Satan lacks free will, Satan aint evil.

Sin becomes irrelevant without free will... Religions that seek to remove temptation and sin from life are missing the point - remove choice and you remove sin and the need for redemption and atonement. Temptation is a stress test

 

[Greizer85]

Then why the temptation of putting the knowledge in the garden in the first place? If Adam and Eve had no "knowledge" of good and evil, Why put the temptation there to begin with? You can't logicly punish someone for not knowing the difference between good and bad. You don't put a candy bar in front of a child, tell them not to touch it, walk away and then beat them after they eat it.

Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, . .. .. .. .in' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

There is also the option that He could see the future but chooses not to do so... But why do that if not for His own amusement? He would effectively be watching a movie with some rather unwilling actors. I'm not amazed why the stock answer to these questions among the religious is "God works in mysterious ways".

@Berzerker: Why test our stress? And if there is sin in heaven, how does it differ from Earth? How can God tolerate the presence of such vile things near Him? Or do you get thrown out of Heaven if you complain about too loud trumpets or too shiny shinyness? Way to keep you on your toes for all eternity. I'd rather light farts and lick whores with Satan in Hell and not give a damn (quite literally).

 

[Fr8monkey]

There is also the option that He could see the future but chooses not to do so... But why do that if not for His own amusement? He would effectively be watching a movie with some rather unwilling actors.

Sounds like God is the Roman Emperor and we are all Gladiators, and we are waiting for a feeble ' thumbs up'? How lame is that?

 

[Ayatollah So]

(i) [...] it is possible for God to create free-willed beings without the possibility of evil.

Interesting argument, but I think you should just argue for this directly. If "God" is posited to be able to design any sort of person whatsoever - their physical, mental, and spiritual character - then this is simple. Just create a person with a sterling good character, and the ability to think up various courses of action, to evaluate them, and to execute their preferred one. They will then do freely good things all the time. Unless they make a mistake due to limited reasoning powers such as humans have, and mistake a bad act (one that has bad consequences) for a good one. But of course God could easily prevent that, for example by providing just-in-time information where necessary.

Of course, we will now see many arguments against what I've just said - all of them hopelessly bad.