Free Will and the Nature of Heaven

[Phlegmak]

Religion, especially Christianity and Islam, makes no sense. So this hypothesizing about Heaven might be fun and cute, but it won't get you anywhere.

 

[cardgame]

Religion, especially Christianity and Islam, makes no sense. So this hypothesizing about Heaven might be fun and cute, but it won't get you anywhere.

Theology is much the same in regards to "fun and cute, but it won't get you anywhere."

 

[Smidlee]

That is another point. If God knew that Adam and Eve would gain knowledge from the tree (because He is all knowing and all seeing), Why not give them the knowledge to begin with? Just an excuse for the Free Will arguement to start with.

Didn't you read the rest of the book? The whole plan it to have free-will beings that chooses to live eternally without the present of evil. Adam and Eve the whole time experience good yet didn't realizes how good they had it until they experience evil. My parents tried as much as possible to keep me from evil yet I rebelled only to find out later how right they really were.

 

[Greizer85]

To be fair, most fun and cute things won't get you anywhere.

Spoiler :

Most statements are redundant, including this one.

Didn't you read the rest of the book? The whole plan it to have free-will beings that chooses to live eternally without the present of evil. Adam and Eve the whole time experience good yet didn't realizes how good they had it until they experience evil.

Why? Why have such a tree in the first place?

 

[The Enigma]

Heaven and Hell most likely do not exist. Why engage in pointless arguments about them?

 

[Smidlee]

To be fair, most fun and cute things won't get you anywhere.

Spoiler :

Most statements are redundant, including this one.

Why? Why have such a tree in the first place?

Don't get side track with the tree (Eve ate it first) it's Adam's decision before he touch the tree that's the focus. Christ is referred as the Second Adam and was not tempted by a tree. There was nothing in itself wrong with the tree of knowledge good/evil as there is nothing wrong with the bread itself that was offered by satan.

 

[cardgame]

Heaven and Hell most likely do not exist. Why engage in pointless arguments about them?

Because some deluded people think they are 100% fo realz.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Didn't you read the rest of the book? The whole plan it to have free-will beings that chooses to live eternally without the present of evil. Adam and Eve the whole time experience good yet didn't realizes how good they had it until they experience evil. My parents tried as much as possible to keep me from evil yet I rebelled only to find out later how right they really were.

Then if we are following the good book, your parents should have taken you to the city elders and had you put to death!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, ... Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

 

[Smidlee]

Then if we are following the good book, your parents should have taken you to the city elders and had you put to death!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, ... Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

From the very beginning God made it clear that the Law could save no one. The purpose of the Law is to condemn. The ultimate penalty of the Law is death. Thank God I'm saved by Grace. Before Deuteronomy The children of Israel put the blood of the lamb on the doorpost to have death pass them by.

 

[Greizer85]

Don't get side track with the tree (Eve ate it first) it's Adam's decision before he touch the tree that's the focus. Christ is referred as the Second Adam and was not tempted by a tree. There was nothing in itself wrong with the tree of knowledge good/evil as there is nothing wrong with the bread itself that was offered by satan.

Without the knowledge of good and evil there would be no sin... But there would still be free will. Why not just wipe Adam's and Eve's memories after they eat the damn apple (or make their decision) - or destroy them and make less curious creatures next time? It's well known that if you tell humans (especially inexperienced ones) not to do something, it's the first thing they'll try.

Or is the idea that the tree symbolizes the audacity of humans to make up their own moral standards - instead of letting God dictate morality to them? His moral authority presumably coming from His precognition of any and all events? In essence, is it a question of whether to decide imperfectly for themselves or obey perfect commandments? In that case He could've made us a bit less headstrong and stubborn. Hm, 'in His own image'... This could get interesting.

1 John 4:8: "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love"
If God is love then why all the killing?

Remember they all got to Heaven - or got what they deserved.

 

[Fr8monkey]

1 John 4:8: "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love"
If God is love then why all the killing?

 

[warpus]

This thread is giving me a headache.

 

[Greizer85]

This thread is giving me a headache.

You have the free will to close it... Or do you?

Spoiler :

I suspect theologists never get to Heaven. They'd bore God to death with their needle dances, and then they'd have a real teleological dilemma!

 

[Warman17]

And a being that would want evil to exist is itself evil. This contradicts the tenet of theism which states that God is good.

For good to exist there must be evil. Therefore if God wants there to be good, there must be evil as well.
Three is possible if heaven is like the Garden of Eden in that we would not have the knowledge of good and evil. After all eating from that tree and gaining that knowledge is what made impure causing God to banish us from it in the first place. Without this knowledge we can not commit sin, but we still have free will as Adam and Eve did before committing the first sin.

Also one is possible. You get cast down to hell when you do, like the Fallen Angel Lucifer.

 

[Greizer85]

For good to exist there must be evil. Therefore if God wants there to be good, there must be evil as well.
Three is possible if heaven is like the Garden of Eden in that we would not have the knowledge of good and evil. After all eating from that tree and gaining that knowledge is what made impure causing God to banish us from it in the first place. Without this knowledge we can not commit sin, but we still have free will as Adam and Eve did before committing the first sin.

This is a weird thing too. In the Bible and the OT in particular it seems that God cares more about the letter of the law than about its spirit. I mean, if I do not know what good and evil mean and kill someone - let's say I'm Adam and kill a lion on a whim - is my act amoral or immoral? Wouldn't I just have discovered morality all on my own by that act? Or would I feel no remorse for killing the poor thing (remember they didn't eat humans back then) just because I hadn't eaten the apple yet? To me that sounds more wicked than anything in the Bible (and there are many wicked things).

It all reminds me of the story in... Well somewhere in OT where one of the tribes of Israel is almost extinct and the men need new wives. However because of some shady deal they have with God, the men cannot legally take new wives from the other tribes. So the men of the other tribes - get this - let the men of the almost-dead tribe rob women from their camps! And God's ok with it, because they didn't marry those women by their fathers' consent, but instead took them and forced them to marry! Hooray for Divine Justice!

 

[Warman17]

This is a weird thing too. In the Bible and the OT in particular it seems that God cares more about the letter of the law than about its spirit. I mean, if I do not know what good and evil mean and kill someone - let's say I'm Adam and kill a lion on a whim - is my act amoral or immoral? Wouldn't I just have discovered morality all on my own by that act? Or would I feel no remorse for killing the poor thing (remember they didn't eat humans back then) just because I hadn't eaten the apple yet? To me that sounds more wicked than anything in the Bible (and there are many wicked things).

The act of Adam killing the lion is neither moral or immoral if God had not restricted him from doing so. You wouldn't have discovered morality because morality, in the eyes of the Bible and OT God, is defined by God's commandments. An immoral act is breaking one of his commandments. It may sound wicked to you, but if who are you to disagree with a being who created the entire universe and everything in it [God's argument in Job]?

 

[Greizer85]

The act of Adam killing the lion is neither moral or immoral if God had not restricted him from doing so. You wouldn't have discovered morality because morality, in the eyes of the Bible and OT God, is defined by God's commandments. An immoral act is breaking one of his commandments. It may sound wicked to you, but if who are you to disagree with a being who created the entire universe and everything in it [God's argument in Job]?

So it is amoral then. And that's wicked.

God's "answer" to Job is one of the biggest disappointments in the entire book imo. All the buildup with that great poetic language (I felt real sorry for poor Job!), and then what? "I made you you peace of slime so I get to call all the shots! Watch your tongue or I'll pierce it with a lightning bolt!". Tell me, if we at some point in the future made thinking and feeling androids, would we have the right to enslave them or destroy/turn them off at will? If not, why do you think that is?

 

[Warman17]

So it is amoral then. And that's wicked.

God's "answer" to Job is one of the biggest disappointments in the entire book imo. All the buildup with that great poetic language (I felt real sorry for poor Job!), and then what? "I made you you peace of slime so I get to call all the shots! Watch your tongue or I'll pierce it with a lightning bolt!". Tell me, if we at some point in the future made thinking and feeling androids, would we have the right to enslave them or destroy/turn them off at will? If not, why do you think that is?

Its only amoral if you don't accept the bible's system of moral absolutism. Your calling God wicked could be considered blasphemy and you are the amoral one.

Even if I accept that a sentient robot can be considered equal to a human, we don't have the right because we are not God. Only God has that right. If God wanted to shut us off he is fully entitled to. You can not compare us creating life to God creating life because we are creating something equal to ourselves, while God is creating something incredibly inferior to himself. A more comparable situation would be if at some point I create a sandcastle do I have the right to kick it and demolish it?

 

[warpus]

Its only amoral if you don't accept the bible's system of moral absolutism. Your calling God wicked could be considered blasphemy and you are the amoral one.

Even if I accept that a sentient robot can be considered equal to a human, we don't have the right because we are not God. Only God has that right. If God wanted to shut us off he is fully entitled to. You can not compare us creating life to God creating life because we are creating something equal to ourselves, while God is creating something incredibly inferior to himself. A more comparable situation would be if at some point I create a sandcastle do I have the right to kick it and demolish it?

Not if the sandcastle is writing poetry and having babies.

 

[Berzerker]

@Berzerker: Why test our stress?

to see if we give in to temptation too easily? Or something like that...

And if there is sin in heaven, how does it differ from Earth?

God lives in heaven

How can God tolerate the presence of such vile things near Him?

Hmm...can God create something so vile even God cannot tolerate being in its presence?

Or do you get thrown out of Heaven if you complain about too loud trumpets or too shiny shinyness? Way to keep you on your toes for all eternity. I'd rather light farts and lick whores with Satan in Hell and not give a damn (quite literally).

May Hell meet your expectations That might make it heaven in somebody's religion