Free Will and the Nature of Heaven

[Greizer85]

Who am I to say why God does what he does, only He can answer that. Imagine if you will your father gave you a set of rules 20 years ago before he disappeared ( though you've heard stories hes still around somewhere, maybe) with harsh consequences if he ever finds you disobeying them. It seems like its been a long enough time, why doesn't he drop by and say hi? Hes your father after all! But it is your duty to respect his wishes regardless, and so you should follow his commands because one day he will return.

The difference is that I know that I have actually had a father (either I've seen him or know from empirical evidence that all humans have one), but who's to say that there is a God? Judging by His calling card He's either a) nonexistent or b) one giant sob.

What if God DIDN'T write the bible and it is in fact written by mere mortals interpreting, through the ages, their own experience with the divine? Instead of taking the Bible as one single book, what happens when you read it as 66 independent books? It's quite clear if you read the Bible horizontally (reading one story say in Samuel and then the same (or similar story) in Chronicles, or the same resurrection stories in the Gospels, you will see that the bible is rather inconsistent.

I'm not sure how people can say the bible is the inerrant word of God when so many "errors" can so easily be seen, but I think the fact that the Bible is written by humans makes it more in favor of God than if it were actually written by the hand of God. If you believe the Bible was written by God, then sure, you can insinuate all sorts of things about God's character, but if the bible was written by humans interpretting their histories and experiences with God, well, their primitive views (ever expanding as they are even today) may be completely mistaken.

Why didn't He see to it (being omnipotent) that His prophets made a little less errors and that their translators were a little less inept/corrupt? After all, an error in a critical spot could lead to someone's direct eternal damnation, and smaller errors in combination to someone giving up their faith, so I'd be damn sure (pun intended) that it's totally right so as to convince & save the most number of people.

Unless He meant it as a test of faith to have people follow an inconsistent, spiteful book... In that case yes, that God, He is quite the merry prankster.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But they believe in an afterlife.

So do Hindus and buddhists. An afterlife does not necessartily include heaven.

Tell thet to the survivors of Nazi concentration camps and get back to me on that.

Nice touch. How about the "rape of Nanking"? How long a list can we make of all the cruel and inhumane things people have done to other people? Which created more pain and suffering for the world: the holocaust or the black death? WAs the plague "evil"? How about the murder of a child? Is evil defined by the scale of the suffering or the individual act?

If you are just trying to put me on the defensive by such comments, it won't work.
What heavenly experiences have you had to prove me wrong? I don't have to prove any inconsistancies... they are all well known to anyone who actually does research.

That is my point. I'm a little lost on what you are trying to achieve with this topic. Are we supposed to be discussing your OP and its merits? Or theism? Or Christianity? Or the goodness of god?

 

[Warman17]

You still havn't given a valad arguement for your opinion. Your preaching, not debating.

Its not an opinion. It is described in the infallible Bible. You're debating against simple facts. Can you not see how foolish you look right now?

The difference is that I know that I have actually had a father (either I've seen him or know from empirical evidence that all humans have one), but who's to say that there is a God? Judging by His calling card He's either a) nonexistent or b) one giant sob.

If we take the metaphor as "you" meaning humanity and "your father" as God then clearly you have had contact with him. Just because he hasn't spoken to you in 2000 years does not mean hes not there, and you can't just ignore him like an upset child angry that his dad doesn't come to visit more often.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Now your saying, "I'm right! Your wrong!" putting your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALA. Just because you say it in a fallible book written by man, doesn't make it true.

 

[Greizer85]

Its not an opinion. It is described in the infallible Bible. You're debating against simple facts. Can you not see how foolish you look right now?

Are you trolling, playing devil's [] advocate, or both?

If we take the metaphor as "you" meaning humanity and "your father" as God then clearly you have had contact with him. Just because he hasn't spoken to you in 2000 years does not mean hes not there, and you can't just ignore him like an upset child angry that his dad doesn't come to visit more often.

Evidence. Look it up in a dictionary.

Also, there's an invisible teapot in orbit around Mars somewhere. Prove it isn't there.

 

[Moss]

Why didn't He see to it (being omnipotent) that His prophets made a little less errors and that their translators were a little less inept/corrupt? After all, an error in a critical spot could lead to someone's eternal damnation, so I'd be damn sure (pun intended) that it's totally right so as to convince & save the most number of people.

I wouldn't say that omnipotence and making sure people do "everything right" are one in the same. Let's assume God is omnipotent, why does anyone make mistakes then? If we are all imperfect beings, it would seem a little unusual if the people who originally wrote and then translated scripture were perfect.

It's quite possible that God didn't want a Bible to be written at all, as I said, the books of the Bible could just be mere mortals interpetations of the divine as they saw it in their time. God might have no more to do with the Bible than just being its subject, not its author (biography/history, not autobiographal).

For all we know, he could be laughing at the traits given to him in the Bible.

 

[Warman17]

Now your saying, "I'm right! Your wrong!" putting your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALA. Just because you say it in a fallible book written by man, doesn't make it true.

Looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black to me.

Also, there's an invisible teapot in orbit around Mars somewhere. Prove it isn't there.

Maybe its there, maybe its not, but the existance of the teapot wasn't reveled through generations of prophets from a divine source, and its exploits not written down word for word.

 

[aelf]

The simple answer is since Heaven is existing within God sans the trials of the world, sinning is just not possible even with free will, since God is without flaw.

As for why things aren't like that to begin with, I guess it has to do with the 'trial' bit. With absolutely perfect knowledge, anyone can make the right choice. It takes something more to make the right choices in the absence of certainty and with other tempting options at hand. This is actually pretty basic stuff that any run-of-the-mill Christian should be able to say.

 

[Greizer85]

I wouldn't say that omnipotence and making sure people do "everything right" are one in the same. Let's assume God is omnipotent, why does anyone make mistakes then? If we are all imperfect beings, it would seem a little unusual if the people who originally wrote and then translated scripture were perfect.

It's quite possible that God didn't want a Bible to be written at all, as I said, the books of the Bible could just be mere mortals interpetations of the divine as they saw it in their time. God might have no more to do with the Bible than just being its subject, not its author (biography/history, not autobiographal).

For all we know, he could be laughing at the traits given to him in the Bible.

Such a view is certainly interesting. And much more plausible than infallibility. But you can hardly be called a Christian then.

Tell me, do you believe there is a Hell? If there is, then shouldn't God do all in His power to present us with correct information, so as to avoid it? Otherwise I'd call Him quite malevolent. Or, as Woody Allen would put it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4huaX0UAFGM

(it begins at 2:40 but I recommend wathing the whole thing, it's hilarious)

The simple answer is since Heaven is existing within God sans the trials of the world, sinning is just not possible even with free will, since God is without flaw.

As for why things aren't like that to begin with, I guess it has to do with the 'trial' bit. With absolutely perfect knowledge, anyone can make the right choice. It takes something more to make the right choices in the absence of certainty and with other tempting options at hand. This is actually pretty basic stuff that any run-of-the-mill Christian should be able to say.

But why test us? Why not at least give the option of entering Heaven straight away? If I was sure that there is a Heaven (God came down and showed it to me), sure I'd go there in heartbeat if it really is heavenly, and not some meek harp & harpiscord-filled place like in bad jokes about divinity.
Why all this faith business? It just seems like a deliberate nuisance. Or...

Spoiler :

a scheme to control people.

 

[cardgame]

Its not an opinion. It is described in the infallible Bible. You're debating against simple facts. Can you not see how foolish you look right now?

Bible? Infallible?

 

[Moss]

Such a view is certainly interesting. And much more plausible than infallibility. But you can hardly be called a Christian then.

Tell me, do you believe there is a Hell? If there is, then shouldn't God do all in His power to present us with correct information, so as to avoid it? Otherwise I'd call Him quite malevolent. Or, as Woody Allen would put it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4huaX0UAFGM

(it begins at 2:40 but I recommend wathing the whole thing, it's hilarious)

I do not believe in a Hell. In fact, supporting evidence in the bible for a Hell is somewhat dubious as well, it is just as likely that non-saved people just cease to exist, if you don't believe that ALL people are saved by Christ as I believe a passage in 1st Corinthians states. The passage is something like "Jesus calls all people to him..."

Also, I don't see why people couldn't hold my view and not still be a Christian? After all, that God created the world and that Christ rose from the dead are historical events (of which their existence and factuality can be debated). I could easily believe that both occurred and still think the Gospels are just people's interpretations on the event and not actually what God might say about the event himself.

Take for example Thomas Jefferson, there are a million books out there about his political ideology, but which is right? Commentaries about the historical person differ widely, that doesn't mean the historical person didn't exist. And the interpetations and explanations of the history of Jews (and 1st century Christianity) may be different than what God might have intended were he to write the Bible himself, but that doesn't mean Christ wasn't the son of God.

 

[Warman17]

But why test us? Why not at least give the option of entering Heaven straight away? If I was sure that there is a Heaven (God came down and showed it to me), sure I'd go there in heartbeat if it really is heavenly, and not some meek harp & harpiscord-filled place like in bad jokes about divinity.
Why all this faith business? It just seems like a deliberate nuisance. Or...

Spoiler :

a scheme to control people.

Because we have to earn our place in heaven. You don't deserve to go into heaven unless you've lived a good life.
And yes it is a scheme to control people. A scheme by God to motivate people to live according to his laws.

 

[aelf]

But why test us? Why not at least give the option of entering Heaven straight away? If I was sure that there is a Heaven (God came down and showed it to me), sure I'd go there in heartbeat if it really is heavenly, and not some meek harp & harpiscord-filled place like in bad jokes about divinity.
Why all this faith business? It just seems like a deliberate nuisance. Or...

Spoiler :

a scheme to control people.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he'd want to control his creations. I mean, he's the master. The Bible actually seems to emphasize that point a couple of times.

As for omnipotence, IIRC, the concept as we know it today doesn't exist originally. It's a later assumption.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I do not believe in a Hell. In fact, supporting evidence in the bible for a Hell is somewhat dubious as well, it is just as likely that non-saved people just cease to exist, if you don't believe that ALL people are saved by Christ as I believe a passage in 1st Corinthians states. The passage is something like "Jesus calls all people to him..."

Perhaps you mean this passage:

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Greizer85]

Because we have to earn our place in heaven. You don't deserve to go into heaven unless you've lived a good life.
And yes it is a scheme to control people. A scheme by God to motivate people to live according to his laws.

Why should I have to earn anything? I didn't ask God to make me, did I? It is just toying with people, all this 'faith' nonsense; do this, do that (except on Thursdays), etc. If you have the keys to Paradise and I can live there without sin, why not let me enter? And why punish me eternally for the limited evil I'm capable of? Why threaten people who are sexually different and cannot help it (and whom You made so in the first place ), with eternal 'punishment', etc etc etc?

I do not believe in a Hell. In fact, supporting evidence in the bible for a Hell is somewhat dubious as well, it is just as likely that non-saved people just cease to exist, if you don't believe that ALL people are saved by Christ as I believe a passage in 1st Corinthians states. The passage is something like "Jesus calls all people to him..."

Also, I don't see why people couldn't hold my view and not still be a Christian? After all, that God created the world and that Christ rose from the dead are historical events (of which their existence and factuality can be debated). I could easily believe that both occurred and still think the Gospels are just people's interpretations on the event and not actually what God might say about the event himself.

Take for example Thomas Jefferson, there are a million books out there about his political ideology, but which is right? Commentaries about the historical person differ widely, that doesn't mean the historical person didn't exist. And the interpetations and explanations of the history of Jews (and 1st century Christianity) may be different than what God might have intended were he to write the Bible himself, but that doesn't mean Christ wasn't the son of God.

I meant the common view of Christianity. Most every sect relies heavily on the Bible and claims that its writers were 'divinely inspired'. If you want to call yourself Christian, nothing's stopping you. Something tells me I'd much rather associate with you than the members of, for example the Jehovah's Witnesses.

"Just ceasing to exist", you make it sound so easy. And I suppose that it is. Too easy in fact. I would much rather suffer eternally (depending on the degree of suffering ofc) than cease to exist totally. It is my deepest, most horrific, and dare I say rational fear.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he'd want to control his creations. I mean, he's the master. The Bible actually seems to emphasize that point a couple of times.

As for omnipotence, IIRC, the concept as we know it today doesn't exist originally. It's a later assumption.

Well I do not wish to have a master! At least not a violent maniac one.

If God is not omnipotent, He shouldn't have made us at all. Why toy with living, feeling things if you don't have a clue? It's just dangerous vanity imo. The Bible certainly does support such a view though.

 

[Moss]

Perhaps you mean this passage:

Yes, but verse 22 and 23 right before the verses you quoted says (NIV translation) "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

 

[aelf]

Well I do not wish to have a master! At least not a violent maniac one.

Well, if that's not your cup of tea then I suppose you shall just have to go to hell where you are free to suffer

Seriously, some Christians do talk about absolute freedom v.s. freedom from the bondage of sin. The two are radically different.

Personally, I think if the Christian God is much less demanding than it seems (maybe he is?), it would be pretty a reasonable picture.

If God is not omnipotent, He shouldn't have made us at all. Why toy with living, feeling things if you don't have a clue? It's just dangerous vanity imo. The Bible certainly does support such a view though.

Not being omnipotent doesn't mean he hasn't got a clue. This is a very shaky argument, if there's one at all.

 

[Greizer85]

Not being omnipotent doesn't mean he hasn't got a clue. This is a very shaky argument, if there's one at all.

Well it's 6:30 in the morning here, so cut me some slack. I guess it depends on how 'potent' He is then. Originally I mentioned it with regards to correcting His translators/inscribers. If a being that has created the Universe cannot 'write' the best book in it, I have little respect for Him.

After reading this, none whatsoever. http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
(If all of that is true, of which I'm ofc not sure.)

 

[aelf]

Well it's 6:30 in the morning here, so cut me some slack. I guess it depends on how 'potent' He is then. Originally I mentioned it with regards to correcting His translators/inscribers. If a being that has created the Universe cannot 'write' the best book in it, I have little respect for Him.

After reading this, none whatsoever. http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
(If all of that is true, of which I'm ofc not sure.)

Maybe he prefers a free market approach?

 

[Greizer85]

Maybe he prefers a free market approach?

A good one. With that' it's time to call it a day... Night... Morning? Anyway, I'm off to sleep, you guys have a field day with this. I'd very much like a comment from a Christian on that link in my last post, if possible.

G N,

Greizer