Deon
Lt. of Mordor
Make a check that a unit has a Winterborn AND is Frozen civilization, and it would bring no need in a new promotion.
Frozen: Bugs, Balances, and Feedback
- Thread starter TC01
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Valkrionn
The Hamster King
The issue with that, is you're then moving into applying the promotion via Python rather than xml, which is much faster. I'd prefer duplicate promotions to excessive python, especially seeing how much python FFPlus already uses.
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
I didn't check if it's in python or XML so I thought it's in Python (I usually make things there 
).
I am not confident about speed, so yeah, I'd prefer another promotion to a perfomance loss.
).I am not confident about speed, so yeah, I'd prefer another promotion to a perfomance loss.
TC01
Deity
Just so you know... there already is a unique Frozen racial promotion I can use instead, called Ice Demon. The problem is some UUs don't have it currently. I can give it to them in the next version and also get rid of Winterborn as a Frozen promotion (the only reason they had it was to spread Wintered). In fact, Ice Demon was added much later after I had them have Winterborn.
So, changes:
In regards to the Blizzards... I'm thinking of adding a spell to get rid of ice, now that it is much more common (with Blizzards spreading it). Maybe it will be only castable by the Arcane Barge, a water unit?
Any suggestions on that?
So, changes:
- Get rid of Winterborn promotion on Frozen units
- Give all Frozen units Ice Demon promotion
- Make Ice Demon units spread Frozen Soul/Wintered, not Winterborn
In regards to the Blizzards... I'm thinking of adding a spell to get rid of ice, now that it is much more common (with Blizzards spreading it). Maybe it will be only castable by the Arcane Barge, a water unit?
Any suggestions on that?
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
The only problem is could you make AI to use it? Because I could block me from enemy ships with ice/block enemy ports.
Also, I don't see AI building arcane barges.
Also, I don't see AI building arcane barges.
TC01
Deity
Not sure if I could make the AI use it. I could make any unit they have that passes near an ice tile (within one plot radius) cast it to get rid of the ice tile..
You're right, Arcane Barges are probably too restrictive. Maybe Scorch or an existing spell can be made to get rid of Ice?
You're right, Arcane Barges are probably too restrictive. Maybe Scorch or an existing spell can be made to get rid of Ice?
Deon
Lt. of Mordor
Why don't you want it to melt naturally without any blizzard nearby? It would be the best solution in my opinion.
TC01
Deity
It is already set up that way... in this version. But in the FFH version of this civ, that is not the case, as no tempFeatureType function exists. So, for that, all ice stays around forever. It's not a question of "not wanting to", it's a question of "not being able to in vanilla FFH". So I was wondering if a spell to get rid of ice might be useful.
But maybe I could make blizzards only have a chance of creating ice on water in the first place? So not all plots would be covered. And of the ones that were, some would melt naturally (in the Fall Further version).
2Hydroclopse
Warlord
- Joined
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A rather interesting -and many times more complicated- solution would be to have the ice behave in an iceberg-like way. Traveling in currents, melting in warm water, growing in icy water, perhaps even a method to allow ships to pass through a lower level -partially melted?- of ice at possible risk.
Brokenbone
Prince
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Definitely not a fan of "Wintered" passing in combat... it seems the equivalent of "Withered" (a special for Wraiths and I think one of the Four Horsemen), and incurable. Maybe it needs to go on a timer (like, you're stuck with the negative promo for 10 turns) or vanish when fully healed or something... more "exotic" solutions like it being curable like a disease, dispellable via dispel magic, or having to travel to someplace like the mirror of heaven to get a tan, none of those would be very easy to encourage the AI to do.
Swinkscalibur
Prince
I think with the changes made to the "Frozen Soul" promotion (as it is now called) -15% base strength is a lot less crippling (personally I would still like to see it at 10, but I'll live). Plus the beauty of a mod-able game is that you can change anything you don't like.
On a related note, how does the AI deal with Disease, Withering and Plagued. Does it understand how to heal itself? If so, how hard could it be to modify that code to teach the AI how to use dispel magic to heal "Frozen Soul"
Lastly, I think standing on the Mirror of Heaven should temporarily provide relief from "Frozen Soul". Could be done via an autoaquire promotion that overwrites "Frozen Soul" with a countdown that lasts say 20 turns after leaving the mirror before the autoaquire disappears.
On a related note, how does the AI deal with Disease, Withering and Plagued. Does it understand how to heal itself? If so, how hard could it be to modify that code to teach the AI how to use dispel magic to heal "Frozen Soul"
Lastly, I think standing on the Mirror of Heaven should temporarily provide relief from "Frozen Soul". Could be done via an autoaquire promotion that overwrites "Frozen Soul" with a countdown that lasts say 20 turns after leaving the mirror before the autoaquire disappears.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
We need to move the frozen code from 'OnCityAcquiredAndKept' to 'OnCityAcquired'. The first one causes OOS issues.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I think they should be added to it. Just have to block the ritual. 
TC01
Deity
Valkrionn: At one point (patch 0.7b I think) I moved everything except the Temple of the White Hand effect to onCityAcquired, because then when you razed a city, you froze the surrounding terrain. If you do this, do you still get an OOS? I know the reason the Infernal code failed was the religion changing (Kael posted that somewhere), so I moved the religion removal out of onCityAcquiredAndKept...
And, in either 0.7 or one of it's patches, I had the Compact Enforced gameoption also block the Frozen from spawning. It does need to be documented somewhere, though, and you can still create the ritual- but it won't do anything.
Swinkscalibur: If, in practice, 15% is still too much, I'll reduce it to 10%. I don't know if the AI can handle healing itself, but with the latest AI improvements in base FFH, it might be able to. And finally, any particular reason the Mirror of Heaven specifically should provide immunity? Not seeing any particular lore justification for it.
Brokenbone: I'm sorry you don't like the promotion passing in combat. However, it will stay that way. The only way I'm balancing it is by changing the effects of the promotion. I'm not going to implement a complicated system as you describe when I have a single line of XML (okay, a few lines of XML) that do something similar. And I'm also not going to make one of the core components of the Frozen based on something only existing in Fall Further... remember I'm trying to keep the FF and FFH versions as close as possible.
And, in general, please read the changelog in the first post before posting something you have.
And, in either 0.7 or one of it's patches, I had the Compact Enforced gameoption also block the Frozen from spawning. It does need to be documented somewhere, though, and you can still create the ritual- but it won't do anything.
Swinkscalibur: If, in practice, 15% is still too much, I'll reduce it to 10%. I don't know if the AI can handle healing itself, but with the latest AI improvements in base FFH, it might be able to. And finally, any particular reason the Mirror of Heaven specifically should provide immunity? Not seeing any particular lore justification for it.
Brokenbone: I'm sorry you don't like the promotion passing in combat. However, it will stay that way. The only way I'm balancing it is by changing the effects of the promotion. I'm not going to implement a complicated system as you describe when I have a single line of XML (okay, a few lines of XML) that do something similar. And I'm also not going to make one of the core components of the Frozen based on something only existing in Fall Further... remember I'm trying to keep the FF and FFH versions as close as possible.
And, in general, please read the changelog in the first post before posting something you have.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I had reports of them causing OOS's on taking a city, so I'm assuming so. I myself don't play multi, so it's rather hard to test.
Yeah, needs to be documented if so... And I think it should block production of the ritual as well. Not hard to add, and prevents the AI from wasting time on it.
The AI should be able to heal itself now... If it can haste itself, I'm sure Sephi allowed for a priest to cast cure.
I mean, hell, there's an entire AI function devoted to Feasting... Or Govannon teaching spells, or Loki running around. Sephi did some amazing work. 
I would think the Mirror of Heaven because it's actually a stretch of desert so hot it turned the sand into glass... Would be rather hard to freeze anything there. Depends on if the affliction is their body or soul, of course.
Up until you said "only existing in Fall Further" I was thinking it's only one line of xml also.
Yeah, while it may be a good idea (I'd put it to 30-40 turns, personally), I think keeping all versions of them equal would be best.
TC01
Deity
I've released a Fall from Heaven 2 version of v0.8. I've yet to create (or even start) on the FF compatible version for v0.8. The changelog contains basically everything I had listed before, and everything we've discussed in this thread.
Swinkscalibur
Prince
I just pictured the magic of the mirror of heaven warming and overpowering the magic of the frozen soul for a time (not curing it forever). Also as a side note, I saw a blizzard in my last game just wipe out the mirror of heaven in ice. I just think there should be a barrier around the mirror that prevents blizzards from entering a certain radius.
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Unless I wanted to switch to playing the Frozen, I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use the Liberation ritual. Perhaps the ritual ought to work like the Manhatten Project where as long one Civ casts it all Civs gain the benefits.
As far as benefits go, I'd enable the various heroes and characters from the Age of Ice. Hence once Liberation is cast (and appropriate techs are acquired) the Amurites get three new Heroes (Epona, Belenus and the other one) available to them, the Lanun can get Malus of the Five, the Barbarians can get Hati, the Lljosfar can build the Great Stag and the Illians / Frozen can get Fiacra the North Wind. This gives several civs an incentive for using the Liberation Ritual. As an added benefit the models are already completed and the text files are already available and translated to boot!
As far as benefits go, I'd enable the various heroes and characters from the Age of Ice. Hence once Liberation is cast (and appropriate techs are acquired) the Amurites get three new Heroes (Epona, Belenus and the other one) available to them, the Lanun can get Malus of the Five, the Barbarians can get Hati, the Lljosfar can build the Great Stag and the Illians / Frozen can get Fiacra the North Wind. This gives several civs an incentive for using the Liberation Ritual. As an added benefit the models are already completed and the text files are already available and translated to boot!
Brokenbone
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 405
The revised version of the promo formerly known as Wintered sounds good. Ability to be cured, even if it's with a Dispel Magic, is key. There's very few negative incurable promotions, stuff like Enervated or Weak, or "manageable" negatives like Crazed (+ Loyalty), those are often the booby prize for going a little too nuts with the Mutate, or diving into every Lair you see. The idea of crossing swords with this Civ and ending up with something incurable like the results of the worst of lairs, just didn't fit right... especially since you can go toe to toe with Hyborem or most of the Horsemen without such a negative, and even if you have a tickle fight with Mary Morbus, you just need a Cure Disease to recover.
I am pretty sure most civs can access Dispel Magic, think only the Clan with its Shamans will be out of luck... still, all their troops are disposable anyhow. Keep them away from any Cultists throwing Tsunamis for the rest of their careers I guess, ha ha. Doviello are Shaman-limited too, but as Winterborn, they're immune anyhow.
...
Re: Jabie's post about "what's in it for me?" Liberation... some kind of benefit to the Liberation-maker would be good. I think in my last game the Kurios summoned the Frozen, didn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure if a bunch of heroes would be an appropriate reward (great flavour ideas though, especially if it was just interesting named units who had to earn their own XP), but I'm sure something could be figured out.
I am pretty sure most civs can access Dispel Magic, think only the Clan with its Shamans will be out of luck... still, all their troops are disposable anyhow. Keep them away from any Cultists throwing Tsunamis for the rest of their careers I guess, ha ha. Doviello are Shaman-limited too, but as Winterborn, they're immune anyhow.
...
Re: Jabie's post about "what's in it for me?" Liberation... some kind of benefit to the Liberation-maker would be good. I think in my last game the Kurios summoned the Frozen, didn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure if a bunch of heroes would be an appropriate reward (great flavour ideas though, especially if it was just interesting named units who had to earn their own XP), but I'm sure something could be figured out.
