Frozen: Bugs, Balances, and Feedback

[Valkrionn]

1. Fairly sure I was right about the barb frostlings granting Frozen Souls, so assuming I am correct their astronomical city growth will be curtailed next patch.
2. Blizzards are being nerfed, like I said. Ice will still spread within their borders, but blizzards will be rarer.
3. Again, blizzards will be rarer.

 

[Sarisin]

1. Fairly sure I was right about the barb frostlings granting Frozen Souls, so assuming I am correct their astronomical city growth will be curtailed next patch.
2. Blizzards are being nerfed, like I said. Ice will still spread within their borders, but blizzards will be rarer.
3. Again, blizzards will be rarer.

At any rate, I'm giving up my current game and my next game will start with no Liberation. I'll try again with the new patch.

I am a little confused between a Blizzard and Ice. I can see the damage caused if I take the war to them in their territory, but I don't get receiving damage if I move a unit on to what looks like an ice tile.

Also, is there anything like Magic Resistant, or Cold Resistant (hard to get, I think) that would stop the damage when you go inside Frozen or Illian territory? Using Scorch is pretty worthless right not IMO as it doesn't even last a turn on this ice.

Also, please remember the ice on water tiles as there doesn't seem to be a way to deal with those and they can really mess you up if you have small bodies of water in your territory.

 

[Valkrionn]

Blizzards cause damage to units inside of them; Ice does not. generally a Blizzard is ON Ice, whether from spawning there or from converting the tile... But it's the Blizzard that causes the damage.

Cold Resistant would be a good idea for it, if it doesn't work already. So long as it is specifically Cold damage being done, Cold Resistant should work naturally.

I'm thinking Ice tiles should only be temporarily frozen.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Blizzards damage units moving into them, not those that stay put on a Blizzard tile.

 

[lordrune]

Blizzards cause damage to units inside of them; Ice does not. generally a Blizzard is ON Ice, whether from spawning there or from converting the tile... But it's the Blizzard that causes the damage.

Cold Resistant would be a good idea for it, if it doesn't work already. So long as it is specifically Cold damage being done, Cold Resistant should work naturally.

I'm thinking Ice tiles should only be temporarily frozen.

I'm thinking the same, and I'm also thinking the simplest solution about Ice on water may be simply to not freeze the tiles.

I have to seriously say "amen" to that, brother! I tried a few games with them in.

1. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't make sense how fast their cities grow and how high their game scoring rapidly escalates. Simply put, I don't see any way you could win a Time Victory against the Frozen. Anything like that which eliminates a game victory condition is a problem IMO.

Well, this is something that could in theory happen with any of the Fallow civs that depend on other units being killed to increase their numbers. Similar to Infernals and Mercurians, not so much the Scions and the Legion of D'Tesh as they grow through other means. The difference is that for the Frozen, it seems to be happening very often. I saw it in my last game as well, as Elohim - played to about 300 turns (normal speed) and observed the Frozen had about four or five cities in between 40 and 60+ pop. They had carved out quite a nice little refrigerated slice of the world for themselves, appropriately next to the Illians. I had the game won with an Altar victory, but I didn't have the highest score

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, as we have a 'tempfeature' function already having temporary ice on water is quite easy, and fitting.

 

[Sarisin]

I'm thinking the same, and I'm also thinking the simplest solution about Ice on water may be simply to not freeze the tiles.



Well, this is something that could in theory happen with any of the Fallow civs that depend on other units being killed to increase their numbers. Similar to Infernals and Mercurians, not so much the Scions and the Legion of D'Tesh as they grow through other means. The difference is that for the Frozen, it seems to be happening very often. I saw it in my last game as well, as Elohim - played to about 300 turns (normal speed) and observed the Frozen had about four or five cities in between 40 and 60+ pop. They had carved out quite a nice little refrigerated slice of the world for themselves, appropriately next to the Illians. I had the game won with an Altar victory, but I didn't have the highest score

I've had some large cities with d'Tesh, and a few other civs, but nothing came close to what I saw with the Frozen.

I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense to me how you can be ahead in virtually all other game elements (technology, Wonders, Wealth, territory size, etc.) and be obliterated in the score. I gave up around Turn 550 still ahead in everything but pop. My score was 1,600 pts while the Frozen had over 4,000 pts.

Yes, I could have tried to gain another type of victory, but the point is that it just isn't possible to have a Time Victory (you often have to settle for this) with the Frozen in the game.

Thank you for the clarifications on Blizzard vs. Ice.

 

[Valkrionn]

Their score is high because of their population; Now that I know there's an issue with the number of Frozen Souls they are getting, I know what to look at.

 

[TC01]

A lot of the population issues should have been fixed in my v0.8 (i.e., the independent Frozen civ mod). From the changelog:

-Allow Dispel Magic spell to remove Wintered from affected units.
-Wintered/Frozen Soul now applies -15% strength, -25% against cold damage
-Frozen units no longer have Winterborn promotion
-Wintered/Frozen Soul is no longer spread by Winterborn... it is spread by Ice Demon instead
-All Frozen units now have Ice Demon (except for the Ice Golem, which starts with Golem)
-Removed Winterborn trait (it was useless now that Frozen do not start with Winterborn)
-Your own units no longer turn into Frozen Souls
-Wintering no longer causes Frozen or Winterborn units to gain Wintered/Frozen Soul
-Blocked Winterborn units from gaining the Wintered/Frozen Soul promotion

The key changes here is eliminating Winterborn as a spreader of Frozen Soul/Wintered. So now only Frozen units can spread it. And now that Winterborn itself has less of an effect (which can be made even less), and that spawn rates have been decreased (your units don't create Frozen Souls when they die, the Wintering worldspell doesn't give your own units Wintered/Frozen Soul)... things should be better.

But again, that assumes these changes have been made to RiFE.

Something else that I just realized after reading about it elsewhere is that, in FFH 2 vanilla at least, a unit can become both an Angel and a Mane. So now, here, a unit can become an Angel, Mane, and Frozen Soul. Perhaps blocking this from happening would also help restrict the spawn rate?

 

[Valkrionn]

It should have been in, as I merged it... Might have goofed during the merge though, always a possibility.

Will remerge the patch, I think.

 

[TC01]

I'll do some playtesting of my own in the current version of the Frozen for Fall Further to see how population works.

Anyway, I was working on Blizzards, and I released v1.1 of the Fall Further Blizzards here. I don't know if the numbers are what you want for future versions of RiFE, or even if you've already done most of what I did, but here are the numbers now:

self.iBlizzardDriftChanceEast = 25		#Chance a blizzard drifts east
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceWest = 25		#Chance a blizzard drifts west
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceNorth = 25		#Chance a blizzard drifts north
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceSouth = 25		#Chance a blizzard drifts south
self.iBlizzardKillChance = 35			#Chance a blizzard expires
self.iBlizzardKillChancePlus = 45		#Chance a blizzard expires outside of Illian territory
self.iBlizzardChance = 20				#Chance a blizzard spawns
self.iBlizzardIceChance = 15			#Chance a blizzard turns an adjacent water plot into ice
self.iPermanentSnowChance = 30			#Chance a blizzard turns land plots into permanent snow
self.iPermanentIceChance = 15			#Chance a blizzard turns water plots into temporary ice

I added some more constants, including permanent ice and snow chances, and a chance for ice to even happen in the first place.

Scorch can now remove water ice within one tile of the caster, and I've added an extra death chance outside of Illian territory.

Whether this is what you want to use or not, I just thought I'd let you know. If you do use it... since I haven't merged it with the Frozen yet, everything will have to be changed to check for Illian and Frozen ownership of plots.

 

[Sarisin]

I'll do some playtesting of my own in the current version of the Frozen for Fall Further to see how population works.

Scorch can now remove water ice within one tile of the caster, and I've added an extra death chance outside of Illian territory.

Whether this is what you want to use or not, I just thought I'd let you know. If you do use it... since I haven't merged it with the Frozen yet, everything will have to be changed to check for Illian and Frozen ownership of plots.

Scorch was working OK in my games with the Frozen in them. The problem was that it would turn an Ice/Blizzard tile to Tundra, but by the next turn it was back to Ice/Blizzard again. Having an army of Adepts with Scorch to try and micromanage this was just not working.

Also, the ice in small bodies of water WAS permanent and really messed things up - on land maps anyway.

 

[Valkrionn]

The stuff he listed is not in RifE; It's in the original mod, which he made for FfH and FF.

 

[Seten]

Hi, great modmodmodmod

But i have a bug where the whitehand religion is removed from my city (exept the holy one)
Anybody know how to manualy fix it by editing the revelant files?

 

[TC01]

Hi, great modmodmodmod

But i have a bug where the whitehand religion is removed from my city (exept the holy one)
Anybody know how to manualy fix it by editing the revelant files?

There is code in CvEventManager.py under the "onCityDoTurn" function that looks like this:

		pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner())
		if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_FROZEN'):
			for iTarget in range(gc.getNumReligionInfos()):
				if not pCity.isHolyCityByType(iTarget):
					pCity.setHasReligion(iTarget, False, True, True)
					for i in range(gc.getNumBuildingInfos()):
						if gc.getBuildingInfo(i).getPrereqReligion() == iTarget:
							pCity.setNumRealBuilding(i, 0)

It removes all religions and religious buildings from Frozen cities (since when this was written there was no White Hand and the Frozen were agnostic).

Removing this code will stop this from happening.

 

[Atronarch]

Hey,

I don't know if this is a bug :

When the frozen's cities are near water plot those city grow very intensively ending at size 70/80 at a rate of 1 pop for 1 or 2 turns in epic.

I have seen this 2 times in different games and when frozen start not near water there cities grow at a normal rate.

 

[Cão]

Hey,

I don't know if this is a bug :

When the frozen's cities are near water plot those city grow very intensively ending at size 70/80 at a rate of 1 pop for 1 or 2 turns in epic.

I have seen this 2 times in different games and when frozen start not near water there cities grow at a normal rate.

Same here...

I´m playing as a Bannor right now. I was starting to loose the "tech race" for the Jotnar/Basium, so I sent an army to hold them. Now I can´t make peace with them until I return to them a city, that I won´t do.

But, at the south, the Frozen was growing... At first it was not a big problem, they killed some high promoted spiders, but that´s okay. But now they are unstopable.

Thet have 4 "core" cities covered with blizzard, with population of 49, 65, 66, 86. I send the stack of doom there, but I was stopped my march of death at a 23-pop city gates, that has Calabin as previous owners...

I´m killing 20 demons each turn, and they keep coming to defend that city, I don´t know how. All with 0 age. It´s just insane.

Is this mean to work that way? I just want to know how the mechanics work, how they do soo many trops in so short time...

 

[TC01]

Same here...

I´m playing as a Bannor right now. I was starting to loose the "tech race" for the Jotnar/Basium, so I sent an army to hold them. Now I can´t make peace with them until I return to them a city, that I won´t do.

But, at the south, the Frozen was growing... At first it was not a big problem, they killed some high promoted spiders, but that´s okay. But now they are unstopable.

Thet have 4 "core" cities covered with blizzard, with population of 49, 65, 66, 86. I send the stack of doom there, but I was stopped my march of death at a 23-pop city gates, that has Calabin as previous owners...

I´m killing 20 demons each turn, and they keep coming to defend that city, I don´t know how. All with 0 age. It´s just insane.

Is this mean to work that way? I just want to know how the mechanics work, how they do soo many trops in so short time...

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.

 

[Valkrionn]

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.

I have. Just not in the released version; it's several weeks old.

As I've said multiple times, next version will have them much more balanced. Until then, I'd use the "No Liberation" game option.

 

[Cão]

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.

Thank you for the response TC01.

I will play with Liberation Off for now. =D

I liked the Frozen White Apocalypse effect. I just thik that if they are going to spread that fast, they must have diplomacy off, so everyone has them as an enemy. Like an Ultra-Evil Alignment...