Frozen: Bugs, Balances, and Feedback

[MagisterCultuum]

I've never played this, so don't really know what Wintered is.

I tend to think that angels and demons should have resistance to cold just like they have to fire.

The Goliath is a mechanical unit, right? Machines can be very temperature sensitive. Low temperatures can cause the microscopic crystal structure of metals to change, greatly changing their properties. Cold metals can be extremely brittle. Some alloys can separate into different parts due to the cold. I've heard that the tin cans that the Germans army stored their food in WWII became quite dangerous in the Russian winter, as the phase change caused sharp shards of metal to be ejected out of the cans and into the food, from where it could rip apart the digestive system of those who ate it.

 

[Sarisin]

Please bear with me as this was my first game I was able to get into without CTDs.

Well, the Frozen were summoned and this sent me scurrying to this thread to read more about what was going on - in addition to the ole trial and error method of learning.

However, one thing that mystifies me is how their game score went. I realize the point system in Civ 4 is wonky at best, however, hear me out...

When they entered the game they came in at around 600 pts - this was about turn 400 of an Epic speed game. I had a little over 700 pts. The other 6 AI civs in the game were 200 or more pts below the score of the Frozen when they came into the game.

Within, oh, maybe 150 turns, the Frozen was 300 pts ahead of me 1,200 vs. 900 pts. I was amazed how fast their score went up.

However, then for about 25 turns, their score dropped from 1,200 pts to 800 pts (middle of the pack), only to come back around 1,400 pts. again.

Are these scoring fluctuations and rapid ascent of the Frozen to be expected? Why do they start with so many pts.? I don't remember any of these things happening with the likes of Basium, Hyborem, Koun, etc.

Having said this, they really add an interesting element to the game to say the least. A very fine job in coming up with the Frozen for RifE!

 

[Monkeyfinger]

If the co

cksucker (whatever their Chariot UU is called) nests something, then you eliminate the frozen, then the nested victim explodes into new units, the new units count as Tanaris's and Tanaris reappears in the scoreboard.

 

[Valkrionn]

Cochrachan? Something along those lines.

The spawned version only lasts a few turns.

 

[TC01]

If the co

cksucker (whatever their Chariot UU is called) nests something, then you eliminate the frozen, then the nested victim explodes into new units, the new units count as Tanaris's and Tanaris reappears in the scoreboard.

It's "Kocrachon". All of my units are drawn from Kael's Bestiary of Erebus, available in the Lore Forum somewhere.

But that does seem to be problematic. I think I'll just make them be Barbarian (Demonic? Animal?) units if the Frozen are dead.

 

[tokala]

New to RifE and my first aquaintance with the frozen was quite a shock.

Turn 130 on normal speed, 3 cities, fighting for survival vs. the Archos, and the Frozen are spawning right next to my capital. Founding two cities in no time and soon the whole border is covered in ice. Having a peek with my rock raven: Strength 8 units, while I have a bunch of plain warriors and a few hunters
Better don't mess with those, thinks I. But a few turns later I notice that the ice starts to creep into my lands, surely this will stop sooner or later, won't it?
Nope, within a few turns my secondary city is choked, and the snow is encroaching into my capitals BFC. In desperation I throw all I have against the Frozen, taking them out with heavy casualties. Fortunately I get the peace event whith the Archos, otherwise I would have been done for.

But the ice is still spreading

Only after the last blizzard dies down, it stops. End result: one city taken out, capital reduced to half productivity. A few tiles are thawing up again, but nothing substantial.

In the end I have to find myself a new homeland in the lush jungles formerly occupied by the unfortunate Clan of Embers (Orc slaying ftw).
All in all quite a rollercoaster ride

Some questions: Is there any way to get rid of/stop the ice apart from the scorch spell? And is the spreading velocity of the icefront ~1 tile every 2-3 turns working as intended? If so, then is your only chance vs. the Frozen to kill them ASAP?

 

[lordrune]

Heh tokala, I had fun with Frozen in my last Kahd game
Luckily for me, I had sorcery, and was on my way to getting Strength Of One. So the Frozen came much later. I got Kahd, cast dominate on Taranis, and fireballs and elementals did the rest.

If they had come earlier, I would have been screwed though.
AFAIK you can't really stop the blizzards and the ice spread, although luckily it doesn't go too far outside their own territory.

 

[Valkrionn]

New to RifE and my first aquaintance with the frozen was quite a shock.

Turn 130 on normal speed, 3 cities, fighting for survival vs. the Archos, and the Frozen are spawning right next to my capital. Founding two cities in no time and soon the whole border is covered in ice. Having a peek with my rock raven: Strength 8 units, while I have a bunch of plain warriors and a few hunters
Better don't mess with those, thinks I. But a few turns later I notice that the ice starts to creep into my lands, surely this will stop sooner or later, won't it?
Nope, within a few turns my secondary city is choked, and the snow is encroaching into my capitals BFC. In desperation I throw all I have against the Frozen, taking them out with heavy casualties. Fortunately I get the peace event whith the Archos, otherwise I would have been done for.

But the ice is still spreading

Only after the last blizzard dies down, it stops. End result: one city taken out, capital reduced to half productivity. A few tiles are thawing up again, but nothing substantial.

In the end I have to find myself a new homeland in the lush jungles formerly occupied by the unfortunate Clan of Embers (Orc slaying ftw).
All in all quite a rollercoaster ride

Some questions: Is there any way to get rid of/stop the ice apart from the scorch spell? And is the spreading velocity of the icefront ~1 tile every 2-3 turns working as intended? If so, then is your only chance vs. the Frozen to kill them ASAP?

Heh tokala, I had fun with Frozen in my last Kahd game
Luckily for me, I had sorcery, and was on my way to getting Strength Of One. So the Frozen came much later. I got Kahd, cast dominate on Taranis, and fireballs and elementals did the rest.

If they had come earlier, I would have been screwed though.
AFAIK you can't really stop the blizzards and the ice spread, although luckily it doesn't go too far outside their own territory.

Blizzards will spawn in Illian/Frozen territory, and will move around freezing terrain. A few will venture out of their borders, and leave snow behind them... Usually temporary, not always. They'll also temporarily remove organic resources... those come back after a bit.

Keep in mind, Scorch alone can move Ice to Grassland, and scorch isn't hard to get.

 

[tokala]

Keep in mind, Scorch alone can move Ice to Grassland, and scorch isn't hard to get.

Aye, but things are getting getting ugly fast when the Frozen are popping up next to you in a desert and you have neither sun mana nor even KotE yet. And even if I had those, I would have needed half a dozen adapts casting Scorch fulltime to halt the icing. No way of getting there fast enough.

I found the effort required in research and hammers better invested towards smashing some orc skulls

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, I meant more of a 'You can salvage any frozen out cities' type of thing.

 

[Sarisin]

In my first game I was just killed by the Frozen's antics. One of the worst things was the turning of my water tiles into ice.

I managed to get Sun mana and had my Adepts start to terraform the ice back.

However, I was playing the Doviello and I think they have an advantage too in ice and tundra. So, I stopped the terraforming.

1. Is a world full of ice and tundra beneficial for the Doviello or should they terraform?

2. Can the Doviello bring the Frozen into the game? I'm not quite sure how the Frozen get in the game. I've played the Doviello and Balseraphs in my two games - both usually Evil, but my Balseraphs changed to Neutral after adopting Runes.

Also, I just loved playing the Doviello with their peace with the animals and later the animals spawning in their cities. I think in RifE every civ has some new and fun feature worth trying. So many civs, so little time....

 

[Valkrionn]

In my first game I was just killed by the Frozen's antics. One of the worst things was the turning of my water tiles into ice.

I managed to get Sun mana and had my Adepts start to terraform the ice back.

However, I was playing the Doviello and I think they have an advantage too in ice and tundra. So, I stopped the terraforming.

1. Is a world full of ice and tundra beneficial for the Doviello or should they terraform?

2. Can the Doviello bring the Frozen into the game? I'm not quite sure how the Frozen get in the game. I've played the Doviello and Balseraphs in my two games - both usually Evil, but my Balseraphs changed to Neutral after adopting Runes.

Also, I just loved playing the Doviello with their peace with the animals and later the animals spawning in their cities. I think in RifE every civ has some new and fun feature worth trying. So many civs, so little time....

Yeah, I'm thinking that the water should only be temporarily frozen, rather than even a chance for permanent... Either that, or we need an IceBreaker promotion for ships.

1. Well, that depends on what you mean. They DO get 1 from Snow... Makes the tile usable. They also have Winterborn, which means they get combat bonuses in snow/tundra... They're version of winterborn also includes stealing enemy weapons. That is in their concept section in the pedia, btw. Other than those bonuses, they don't get anything towards the actual terrain.... They DO get extra food from the Yaranga, a tundra/snow improvement that can discover certain animal resources and is buildable in forests. Spam the hell out of those. Good for FoL anyway, which increases their spawn rate.
2. Any Evil civilization can do so. Requires Elementalism, and costs 600 ... Half of if you have Ice Mana.

I'm glad you like them. They were the second civ I worked on.... Their animal spawns will likely be rebalanced/expanded next patch when all of the animals are finished, but it's a fun mechanic.

Really though, not EVERY civ has been touched. The Malakim/Doviello were the ones who started the mod... Mechanos were incorporated and altered a bit, The Legion was added (very fun, if you're a warmonger), and now the Frozen. The Khazad had the Dwarven Mine added, which is enough that they're one of my favourites... Can never decide between the two emergent leaders though. The one is more unique, but the other has extra production... massively powerful for the Dwarves. The Amurites were also upped from base FF, but that's all from RLD, which I mostly incorporated (apart from the extra spell tier).

 

[Gravage]

Hm, wouldn't it be somewhat nice if summoning him would have some sort of incentive, or have it be mandatory? I can see the Doviello and the Illians having an incentive to summon him, but only because Taranis is more dangerous to others than him. Maybe have the ritual add Winterborn to all the units of the summoning Civ? Or have him a chance to spawn like 1% per ice mana in the game? Anything that would give a reason to summon him, or not have it depend on civ's building a somewhat useless ritual.

 

[Korias]

Perhaps making Ice Mana required to construct Liberation might be a good idea, to limit them somewhat to Illians/Letum Frigus or if pursued after elementalism, plus an incentive of 1-3 Ice Golems to balance the fact that it was 600 Hammers out of your way and a couple thousand beakers out of the way of champions.

 

[Valkrionn]

Originally they were Illian-only... People complained precisely because it was limited.

 

[2Hydroclopse]

I have recently played the Illian's and Oy, it is annoying for your cows to be continually hidden under snow and then popping up several turns later.

I mean, it is hard to use the organic land resources as the Illians, so much so that I was lagging far behind AI --more than usual, that is--; also, I happened to be situated in a rather watery area, I mean, ice-doom-ageddon area --could not get a galley/work-boat out for the life of me, which made water resource usage near impossible--.

Are the Illians still meant to be a playable race? --I suppose they are better than a few of the other civs, but still-- =p

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... Need to prevent resources from disappearing when in Illian/Frozen land.

 

[Breez]

I don't like the frozen.

Thank you very much for the option to disable them.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... I believe that I'll make Taranis unable to change alignment through any means. Only he and Cassiel will have that feature... I think it fits him.

 

[Sarisin]

I don't like the frozen.

Thank you very much for the option to disable them.

I have to seriously say "amen" to that, brother! I tried a few games with them in.

I really can't see how anyone can play a game when the Frozen enters the scene.

1. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't make sense how fast their cities grow and how high their game scoring rapidly escalates. Simply put, I don't see any way you could win a Time Victory against the Frozen. Anything like that which eliminates a game victory condition is a problem IMO.

2. The ice spread is a bit much. I used to think that hell terrain spread was bad, but this is hell terrain on steroids. An adept can use Scorch to change ice to tundra, but next turn it is ice again. You need an army of adepts with Scorch if the ice is anywhere near your borders. It brings back the terrible micromanagement exercise of pollution removal in Civ III.

3. I'm finding it impossible to even wage war against the Illians and especially the Frozen because of the ice damage you get. It can be quite a bit and you cannot move your units anywhere without getting it. Worse, it appears to even cause damage INSIDE your borders. So, even when you move your units to the front lines they arrived damaged and need to be healed...so they can move a tile or two and get more damage.

I'm sorry. Love the concept of the Frozen, but in the game itself, just not much fun. Thank you indeed for the option to switch them off.