Furious with the EU fascism

[REDY]

I am againist EU but call fascist you may use only for extremely reasons. EU is bureaucratic, antiamericanist, antimuslim state but there is plurality of opinions. You may vote politics. I also see danger that we are becoming more, and more similiar as USA, Russia or China. We havent Big Brother as Putin or Bush, every part of parlament has own ideas. Some steps must be controled more, because ultrademocratics when in EU are 25 quarrelling countries = non EU. So EU will havent any sense...and I am for it

 

[kronic]

that last sentance could be taken right out of any given dictators handbook.

It's true, there are many potential terrorists in europe, several hunder million actially

While I don't share KA's extreme hatred for this law, the trend certainly is worrying to me too.

Indeed, the trend is extremly worrying. Everyone and everything can be controlled everywhere. Hurray for the Big Brother state!

 

[King Alexander]

While I don't share KA's extreme hatred for this law, the trend certainly is worrying to me too.

Yes, I have extreme hate for this law, and I wanted to make sure people understand it, that's why I mentioned extreme examples(that otherwise, are against my ideology-behaviour as a human being).

I don't care how other goverments view their immigrants: if they don't feel safe, they should throw them out of their country or make them citizens or don't allow them ever to apply for citizenship or ask them to become change religion/become atheists if they want to stay in the country, I don't really care when it comes to LIMIT my own personal freedom because some immigrants got here or there.

Yes, I KNOW it's UNFAIR for the majority of the immigrants to propose things like that because their minority causes distress and trouble, but when it comes on LIMITING my own personal freedom and spy me, that's what matters for me and nothing else, sorry.

@KA: would you say that your government would stop this law, if it could? We're not in the EU, but the way it looks, similar laws will be introduced here too, by our own government. Though there's probably going to be a referendum about it, if they do...

When the people say they DO NOT WANT such a law, it certainly SHOULD NOT matter what the god damn EU wants, and have the GUTS to satisfy your own citizen's WILL, even if the EU will put a fine on you. For me it's not an excuse that the EU wants this or that, plain and simple. For another country may be another issue: GOOD, allow them do have what they want, but don't ask me to accept that here also.

Who said it's a good idea to have all around the EU the same things legal or illegal? If the Dutch want to have pot LEGAL, what the hell care ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES that can continue to have that illegal on their country? The same with issues that the MAJORITY of the population of a european country doesn't want/wants(when the Polish are deeply Catholic and don't want certain things to change, why should matter to me, since I don't live there and they don't affect me? Besides, if it's the MAJORITY of their population that wants/doesn't want something, what the heck, they have a Democracy and what the majority wants should be done and not force the majority to obey the minority's will, because that has a name and it's called TYRRANY-DICTATORSHIP. The Dutch want euthanasia, fine with them! The British want TO BE SPYED by their goverment, just fine, but DON'T ASK ME TO DO THE SAME).

 

[Grisu]

but that's basically the point of a political union, isn't it? you give up some sovereignity to a higher authoritiy (the EU in this case).

note: I'm not supporting this law at all, but what if the majority of the EU supported it (just not greece). you can't possibly call it tyrannical since it'd be supported by the majority. on the same level, I can't call some of our federel laws tyrannical, just because the majority of my canton disagrees...

the way I see it, the only way to have complete control over your own laws (for better or worse) is if you stay out of/leave the EU.

 

[King Alexander]

but that's basically the point of a political union, isn't it? you give up some sovereignity to a higher authoritiy (the EU in this case).

note: I'm not supporting this law at all, but what if the majority of the EU supported it (just not greece). you can't possibly call it tyrannical since it'd be supported by the majority. on the same level, I can't call some of our federel laws tyrannical, just because the majority of my canton disagrees...

the way I see it, the only way to have complete control over your own laws (for better or worse) is if you stay out of/leave the EU.

Well look, I don't wish Hellas to become an uncolored, Brussel-controlled country.

We agreed to decide common things to be the same for the EU countries, but on the other hand, every country to keep laws that fit only it(and certainly there're laws that're unique in any EU country).

You're saying " what if the majority of the EU" and I reply: "what majority?" Have I miised referendums in all countries for SUCH a CRITICAL issue as this law is(I don't care A BIT if Bush&Co or anyone else pressed EU for such laws)?
This is SERIOUS issue for the citizens in most EU countries(maybe not for the UK), and our politicians haven't asked OUR opinion on the issue but just say "EU wants so --- who gives a heck???"

You know, there're things that EU countries do that're on contrast with what they had agreed, and they pay fines as a result, but in this case, it's like saying" we opened our legs, come and have fun and it's something we cannot avoid! Hypocrits!"

 

[Grisu]

the question was hypothetically. I never meant to imply that there is a majority in the EU for this law, but what if? would you still oppose it as tyrannical?

what's more: there are usually no referendums in any EU countries about new laws (EU laws or just national). In fact, besides Switzerland, I know of no country that does it. If you want that, that would mean that you have to make the EU into a semi-direct-democracy (not that I'd oppose that), but I guess discussion about direct democracy would belong into a whole different thread.

 

[King Alexander]

the question was hypothetically. I never meant to imply that there is a majority in the EU for this law, but what if? would you still oppose it as tyrannical?

You bet. I'd prefer my country to pay fines, that to adopt the law, IF the majority didn't want it(and even if the majoryt wanted it, I'd make my own fight with dialogs and talks to persuade the majority for the laws' tyrranical components and keep inform him what privacy, and freedom mean, if they hadn't forgot altogether).

what's more: there are usually no referendums in any EU countries about new laws (EU laws or just national). In fact, besides Switzerland, I know of no country that does it. If you want that, that would mean that you have to make the EU into a semi-direct-democracy (not that I'd oppose that), but I guess discussion about direct democracy would belong into a whole different thread.

Yes, I'd like a direct Democracy for critical matters that will affect drastically the lives of the citizens. As I've said above, maybe my country wouldn't want pot to be legal(or maybe it does, it pays no difference for my example): should we be hatred towards the Dutch goverment for that matter? NO! If their majority WANTS SO, let it be so.

 

[Winner]

I certainly DON'T remember any EU official to come to my country, and start a breifing with the people or be open to questions from the people based on polls that show that worries the people.

That's strange, because few moths ago, Barroso and some of his comissioners made a trip around EU presenting their new 3-D initiative. You know what that means - you don't care, so everything looks like the EU fortified itself in Brussels to you.

Secondly, how many times do YOU remember your officials to go from city to city in YOUR country to inform the people from up and close for the EU's propositions, and SIT DOWN on their ass and LISTEN of what the people have to answer on their monologues, what worries them and WHAT CAN BE DONE to their worries?

I don't care, I don't trust our government. Maybe because I study the political science. The more I know about Czech politics, the more I hate the Czech politicians.

I ask for a direct Democracy, plain and simple. If the people doesn't not APPROVE of something then, the goverment CANNOT proceed and do that, plain and simple. Time passes by, and the modern world and economies are evolving so fast, and with them the people also, and they're tired of professional politicians who do nothing and are DEAF after the elections.

Direct democracy is a nonsense, it is not possible in countries bigger than just one small city. Only communists want a direct "democracy", because under DD, it is simplier for them to control the crowds. Face it: people can't handle direct democracy. They are not able to make real decisions.

I'm not saying that are true fascist, but they're semi-fascist at least, when they keep tracks and records. The vast majority in my country doesn't want/like to be spyed: we don't care what the heck they want to do in other EU countries, but our WILL should be respected, otherwise, we have a dictatorship commanded by the Brussels(and in alliance with our own goverment) and not a Democracy.

OK, how exactly is keeping a record of your calls dangerous? Please, explain that to me, because I don't see it as a wrong thing.

Look, we never had terrorists that did what they some other countries experienced. Yes, they did throw molotov cocktails in banks, offices and such, and HAD killed an individual once every couple of years, but that was it, no big scale things IN ANY CASE.

We haven't attacked other nations to spoil our relationships and fill with anger and rage desperate people who their lives were ruined thanks to us and want revenge for their families and their destroyed dreams.
We had and STILL have very good relationships with the Arabs in general, much better of most other EU countries.

And you really think they won't attack you, because you haven't attacked other countries?

I guess the Spaniards were thinking that too, until they massacred 200 of their people going to work by train in the morning.

Imported terrorists? Only some anarchoterrorists we had-have and those who killed some people are in jail now.

They're going into that direction, that's for sure.

See above. I already answered that. The countries that're SO MUCH worried about the immigrants they have, they should deport them, make them citizens or do what the heck they want with them, but NOT enforce FASCIST laws into the whole EU, have I made myself clear enough?

They can't deport them because of people like you saying that it would be fascist

And please, stop using the words fascist for something, what is definitely NOT fascist.

I don't see how the current goverments want to protect my rights, the communists at least fight and demonstrate very often for the people's rights here, and they're the ONLY ones that still fight from our current parties, I don't know what they do in your country, but you certainly experienced the fascism commanded Stalin and the rest, so I understand you.

That's it, I don't get it: the mainstream parties don't protect your rights enough, so you will vote for the communists. It's like German Jew in 1932 Germany saying "I don't trust our parties, so I'll vote for the Nazis."

I already said that I don't support a specific party or the communists in particular(their theory is flawed in a good percentage, but they're right in some things as well), but, you must have noticed by now that, there're no major differences in the modern-day parties: maybe 20 years ago they supported and DONE other things, they walked the walk, but today, socialist can mean even a right-wing economy-action party.

I certainly have the guts to support that party that will bring a good change, I'm not stuck between two idiotic parties that neither delivers and just fools the - brainwashed to vote them every time, no matter what - people(which is the case in all the modern west "Democracies").

Well, what can I say to that. Visit the Belarus, live there for few weeks and then come back to Greece. I am sure it will appear a lot more democratic and a lot more free then.

 

[CartesianFart]

I don't care, I don't trust our government. Maybe because I study the political science. The more I know about Czech politics, the more I hate the Czech politicians.

Maybe that is your problem.The more you study politics the more that it can inspire you to want to partake in politics.Why hate practitioners when you really don't know them personally to make that decision of hate?I find you insightful in European politics on the continent but i think most of your passions really prevent you to be a neutral observer which i think it is what characterically make a politician.

 

[REDY]

Winner: I think politics is dirty thing, it doesnt matter if Czech or European. National goverments in other countries - Chirac, Putin, Bush, Blair...are they better than ours? I dont know personalities who are in European parliament but I heard that there are also communists, populists...its similiar like national goverments, but in the future they may have rights to say for example only France will have agriculture, Poland will invade to Belarus, Romania will give people to German factories and so on. Main goal to be not in totalism is giving not too much power to goverment. Sorry for piggy-English.

 

[atreas]

Direct democracy is a nonsense, it is not possible in countries bigger than just one small city. Only communists want a direct "democracy", because under DD, it is simplier for them to control the crowds. Face it: people can't handle direct democracy. They are not able to make real decisions.

Which means what? Aren't they THE SAME people that vote in the elections? Since they are, we can safely expect that the representatives they choose reflect their qualities (i.e. they are worthless). If the communists were able to control the crowd, they would win also the elections (conclusion: either we are extremely lucky, or there is some hope in the world ).

And you really think they won't attack you, because you haven't attacked other countries?

I guess the Spaniards were thinking that too, until they massacred 200 of their people going to work by train in the morning.

But now you are spoiling it: I happen to remember Mr Athnar together with his friends Bush and Blair forming the coalition for the war in Iraq. So technically they attacked. For more information, check about the election campaign of Athnar's opponent.

The real point is another one: even if you were assured that some terrorists wouldn't attack directly against you, would that mean that you would be indifferent if they were targeting somebody else? I happen to have the biggest possible dislike for anybody who kills innocent people - I hate bombs when they are put in the trains, but also when they are dropped from planes or when planes are transformed into bombs. And I would like to do whatever is needed to avoid such catastrophes, both here in Greece and also in the rest of the world. The EU says they want to help preventing such things. Still, do you see any kind of prevention in keeping records that are used only AFTERWORDS?

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@KA: Are you sure that you hate this proposal because of it's content, or because you have the feeling that they are lying and those data will be actively used (and not only stored) for spying by the various secret agencies? In the first case I don't find your argument quite valid, since a record by itself says nothing (think, for example, about your medical record). The second one is much more interesting - especially considering the latest events here in Greece with the watched cellphones.

I wonder if there are people out there that believe the various secret agencies will not do whatever is possible to get immediately their hands on these data. Who will resist on them - the governments that pay them for their job?

 

[King Alexander]

That's strange, because few moths ago, Barroso and some of his comissioners made a trip around EU presenting their new 3-D initiative. You know what that means - you don't care, so everything looks like the EU fortified itself in Brussels to you.

Oh, I care, you're very mistaken. I want MUCH more detailed discussions and the EU officials that here to have the guts to take questions from the people and pretend that all's fine at the Eu and such crap. I want Democracy, not Tyranny. I want the PEOPLE to approve of something critical and not the politicians constantly do what they want.

I don't care, I don't trust our government. Maybe because I study the political science. The more I know about Czech politics, the more I hate the Czech politicians.

I also don't trust modern politicians.

Direct democracy is a nonsense, it is not possible in countries bigger than just one small city. Only communists want a direct "democracy", because under DD, it is simplier for them to control the crowds. Face it: people can't handle direct democracy. They are not able to make real decisions.

Well, that's YOUR opinion, and YOU consider that most people cannot make a good decision if they're properly informed. I do believe that ALL people have the potential to make a good decision if they're equally well informed.
At any case, even if my people couldn't read crap, AGAIN they're the ones that should decide things since the PEOPLE have the POWER in my country(according to the constitution) and they elect politicians to do what the people want: if the politicians do otherwise, they should be publicly HANGED, because it's one matter to screw your personal company and another to screw a WHOLE COUNTRY.

OK, how exactly is keeping a record of your calls dangerous? Please, explain that to me, because I don't see it as a wrong thing.

I answered that already in my previous posts and I emphasized how important is privacy for us: no one has ANY job of getting mess with the privacy of the citizens.
Maybe you don't understand it well because your people was never used to it or never considered it important. That's your opinion, well respected, but things here are different.

And you really think they won't attack you, because you haven't attacked other countries?

I guess the Spaniards were thinking that too, until they massacred 200 of their people going to work by train in the morning.

Yes, as I've said we already have good relationships with them, at least until up to this point: if we begin to stupid things to another country without them haveing do to us something bad, that's silly, or do you consider that normal?

The Spaniards had already chosen sides when they send their forces there, you know how things are, why pretend you don't? I'm not telling that I'm not sorry for their loses, I am, but they had enemies and they were in war, plain and simple.

They can't deport them because of people like you saying that it would be fascist

No, those who make serious troubles(WHEN they're cought and their action CAN be proved with evidence in a court of LAW and NOT KILLING people walking down the street or taking the bus/subway because some may THOUGHT they' were criminals --- it seems some are trying VERY HARD to terminate EVERY LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE in the new world order today) and have absolutely no respect for the country they live in, should be deported, I don't care where.

And please, stop using the words fascist for something, what is definitely NOT fascist.

For me it's TYRRANICAL and FASCIST, and that fact doesn't change. I already told what regimes used similar tactics here.

That's it, I don't get it: the mainstream parties don't protect your rights enough, so you will vote for the communists. It's like German Jew in 1932 Germany saying "I don't trust our parties, so I'll vote for the Nazis."

First let me say that, I just considered of voting the communists, that's not my final decision, as I've EVEN considered of voting a party that could be considered theocratical( ): I constantly judge ALL, and I now see that the only ones that truly care here are the communist party(which I may say, is NOT sharing the exact same ideas with the other communist parties in every country that communism was actually applied).

Maybe I know that they won't get to be a goverment, despite my vote, and maybe I actually don't agree with ENOUGH of their ideas for economy, but, but my vote(as well as votes for people who're dissatisfied with the big two major parties) will be a BIG warning to BOTH the two big ones, to FORCE them to CARE about what the people wants by them.

If the two big parties are HANDICAPPED and can't offer much more to my country, IT'S ABOYT TIME FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO TAKE OVER, no regret about them, they offer what they could offer, time to test new, more worthy candidates.

Well, what can I say to that. Visit the Belarus, live there for few weeks and then come back to Greece. I am sure it will appear a lot more democratic and a lot more free then.

OK, I know-understand what you mean. That doesn't change the fact that I STILL consider that law tyrranical, but I respect your opinion if you don't have a problem for that to be applied in your country.

 

[King Alexander]

@KA: Are you sure that you hate this proposal because of it's content, or because you have the feeling that they are lying and those data will be actively used (and not only stored) for spying by the various secret agencies? In the first case I don't find your argument quite valid, since a record by itself says nothing (think, for example, about your medical record). The second one is much more interesting - especially considering the latest events here in Greece with the watched cellphones.

Yes, I DO hate that proposed law for it's tyrranical and fascist cause of spying people and record what they do: they have NO RIGHT to record what I do at my personal life and free time. I'm furious EVEN WITH THE THOUGHT of someone doing that to me in RL, just imagine how I'd react if I had him standing face-to-face with me(better the emergency vehicles were standing by --- I AM NOT KIDDING -- it's one of VERY few things that could make me go crazy).

You say you don't find my arguement quite valid, and I answered you that it's such laws are un-democratical and the state has no business of involving to my life, and I PERSONALLY DON'T ALLOW THAT NO MATTER WHAT THE HELL THEY THINK.

As for your second part, I don't have any doubts that the data will be misused. As I said in a previous post, who's to assure me that they don't handle that data with ill intentions and who's to assure me that they don't even store content when they feel the message is worthy enough to be stored? That's right, NO ONE, or can civil rights organizations have access there to see if the laws are correctly applied?

I wonder if there are people out there that believe the various secret agencies will not do whatever is possible to get immediately their hands on these data. Who will resist on them - the governments that pay them for their job?

Oh YES, there ARE such people out there, you'd be amazed of how many!

 

[mdwh]

The biggest problem is that when you have a "state" with a larger number of people, the say/vote of an individual person is reduced.

However, I wouldn't say the EU is undemocratic - we still vote for MEPs. Indeed, it's worth noting that they are voted in using proportional representation, so I'd say in that respect, the EU is more democratic than the backwards undemocratic first-past-the-post system in use in the UK.

The things you talk of aren't particularly an EU thing - the UK Government is intent on taking away our freedoms; they're way ahead of anything the EU might do, and actually I'd say that the EU represent a hope of defending freedoms that my own Government want to take away.

 

[King Alexander]

@mdwh: I don't really know the psychology of English neither what their tradition is regarding privacy and such issues, but may I ask why all people there don't seem to worry much and have a, somewhat, passive stance as if they really can't do anything(or so are convinced by those ruling...)?

The people have the power at their hands, and if they don't like how their goverment treats them they should vote for a party that promishes to outlaw the unfair laws of the past. Maybe not all will vote for another party(the biggest percentage of voters is brainwashed to DEATH, anyway), but, it's A GOOD START to give more power to alternative parties, IMHO.

I'm saying all this because yourself admitted that your goverment, partially, is taking away your freedoms, so don't just consider this an "attack" to your country.

 

[mdwh]

@mdwh: I don't really know the psychology of English neither what their tradition is regarding privacy and such issues, but may I ask why all people there don't seem to worry much and have a, somewhat, passive stance as if they really can't do anything(or so are convinced by those ruling...)?

Well, the problem is that a majority Government can be elected by only a minority of the population (Labour were voted in with thirty-something percent). Also, sadly, a lot of people have the "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" mentality. Many don't seem to understand the purpose of things like trials, and assume that a suspect is equivalent to a criminal, and so "he doesn't deserve a fair trial, or any rights".

And many people don't seem to care about removal of rights, as long as they think it doesn't affect them - e.g., it only affects foreigners, people of different race/religions, or they think it only affects criminals.

Plus many people vote on other issues. Things like the economy are more important, and they don't want to vote for parties that oppose the plans (i.e., the Lib Dems), when they feel these parties have no experience of running the economy.

I don't know if the UK is any worse than other countries such as the US in this respect.

Overall, I'm more worried about the UK and US Governments, than anything to do with the EU.

 

[Cullyn]

Very quickly, King Alexander, you are from Greece. I would look to your own government first when looking for examples of corruption, greed and paranoia. (The British plane spotters is a case in point, or the corruption with car taxes) Since Greece entered the EU (or EEC, the EC then EU) how many millions of euro have been spent by the EU in your country? And how much has it benefited?

I am from Ireland, now the second wealthiest country in the EU (Per capita income). We joined the EEC in 1973. Back then we were a poor agrarian country on the edge of Europe with limited natural resources, tiny industrial base, a failing economy and mass emigration. The help of the EU stopped and reversed that decline to allow us become that which we are now.

Greece has received more and done nothing with it. The money went in and what? Nothing, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

The so-called fascist laws you speak of are not random rulings from a faceless commission; they are ALL first approved by the Council of Ministers that includes your country.

As for voting for the communists, don’t be so foolish. Communism cannot work; human nature will not allow it.

 

[willemvanoranje]

King Alex... this is AD2006, not 2000BC and we're talking about Europe with 350 million people and not Athens with only a few thousand voters.. it is impossible to make a referendum on every single silly issue, like you seem to want.

Also, by giving up some sovereignity to Europe, you do gain the oportunity to change things in other countries. You actually gain sovereignity in Germany, Sweden, Portugal and Poland for example.

Third, the will of the people is not always the best. If the Greek people want to make a law that says that all foreigners in the country should be killed, should the government make this law? I know the example is extreme, but that's the way it is.

Through voting you have given politicians the right to govern your country in your name. If you are dissatisfied you can protest and hope to make a change, and you can not vote for them in the next elections.

 

[Grisu]

I only partly agree here, while I think a true direct democracy isn't really possible for anything bigger than city-states, partial direct democracy certainly is possible and even a good idea, IMHO.

sure, switzerland is a small state, but I can't see how our model wouldn't work for bigger countries. and so far, we didn't do too badly with it, did we? sure, some things might take longer in a semi-direct democracy (like granting universal sufferage that took us till the 70s to finally get it through). but you can be sure that most law will actually be carried by the majority which is a good way to lower the probability that people actually break the laws.

a good example here would be the new copyright law that's going to be passed soon. because of fear of a public referendum, our low is significantly less pro-music-industry than that of the EU or US. for example, cracking copy-protection for valid reasons (for example a private backup) will not be illegal like it is in the US and the EU.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

EU undemocratic? It is as democratic as any country. Reading some posts here It seems EU is some sort of Alien power that exist in Brussels when in fact ALL EU power resides in the European Council formed for the ministers of exteriors, secretaries and subsecretaries from the governments democratically elected in each country. The commission, the most supranational EU organ, that watch over the interests of the EU as a whole above the interests of the member countries individually, does not have in fact any decisory power (and i think it should), only is capable of proposing things.

Of course the laws approved by the councyl (directives) are compulsory for all countries that have a time limit to introduce them in his respective legislations, annulling any previous local law opossed to the directive. All members countries (his democratically elected goverments to be exact) agreed in this democratically. If anybody doesnt like it, in next elections he can vote some party supporting the exit of his country from the EU, democracy works that way.