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Future Update - Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Mar 24, 2020.

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  1. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    - You forgot World Wars. :)

    Anayway agree late game challenge should come from diplomacy and pressure of other civs.

    Main problem of Civ6 is that late game civs are codded to be boring peacekeeper roleplayers. Also WC is probably the most meaningless system of the game. (Second is religious combat, which also dont help at all).

    When FXS decided to make late game a walk in the park, and removed the domination victory from the AI intentions, they also removed all possible fun of the game.
     
    Deggial and Elhoim like this.
  2. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    I think the solution is making the espionage system much more in depth and stronger.

    So late game warfare moves more towards disrupting and harming other civilizations through espionage.

    Another advantage of this is being easier to program for the AI. Moving around spies being easier than moving military units with one tile per turn.

    I would like espionage to be much stronger for both stopping a snowballer and providing a stronger catch up mechanic, stealing science, gold and culture from the games current runaway
     
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  3. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    I have to say also that strongly disagree here. Feels like we live in a pessimistic microcosms.

    Yes, FPS have become more casual experiences, and they are the most popular games.

    Yes also some design choices are almost universal, like minimaps. Since, sadly using minimaps is a cheap way of avoiding the player to get lost, which is something nobody likes.

    But on the contrary, strategy, platforms, rol and adventure games have not become casual experiences. On the contrary, beeing hard is also a trend many players want. Look at your dark souls, your metro-like, or just look at XCOM. Games have not become guided easy experiences, some genres maybe. And that is why many communities have become fundamentalist difficulty workshippers.
     
  4. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    I'm surprised Firaxis haven't touched the games difficulty settings since release. one of the main complaints about the game is the lack of challenge. People saying the AI is bad and that diety is too easy.

    Firaxis have made gradual progress at improving the AI but haven't touched difficulty at all. They maybe could have made a new difficulty setting above Diety for the community to fight against. There are still mod's that do this. Many giving the AI a food income advantage too allow them to scale better into the lategame. But i'm surprised we don't have an official 'higher difficulty' since it seem's to be such a common complaint amongst the community.
     
  5. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    There is one fundamental design problem with adding proper secessionist movements, rebellions, revolutions, emergent states, new players etc in civ series, and I always remind it:
    The reliance on leaders for each major civilization - now even worse, because full 3d animations. Obviously, new civs randomly emerging during game can't get 3d leader characters.
    The potential solutions are:
    - Disable "real diplomacy" with them forever, essentially limiting them to barbarian or city-state existence. Sort of what loyalty system does. Honestly I think that's a horrible solution. We'd all like real civil wars, revolutions, secessionist movements and new, suddenly emergent empires - REAL rebels, not crippled, pseudo-civ minor players.
    - Banish the historical leader system or "one civ from ancient to future". That's never going to happen. That's the appeal of Civ series, even more now when its rivals Humankind and Old World will each have its own signature take (changing avatar of changing culture in HK and ancient dynasty in OW).
    - Limit rebellions to "once we rebel we go to civilization of our preferred ethnicity/culture/religion/ideology" and "once dead culture's cities may rebel and reestablish it. It'd be already something nice (and no, loyalty system is not nearly enough), but it still doesn't allow us to see real Civil War, Revolution or Rebellion.

    At this point I'd give up, but Humankind proposed brilliant solution to this problem (here used not for rebellions for all civs)

    Let's introduce full - fledged rebellions to the game, which can form full - fledged civilizations. Usually they just wanna join "canonical" civilizations (we Indian rebelling cities wanna rebel and join India once again). Sometimes, however, they wanna go independent. And then, for leaders...
    ...let's procedurally generate 3d leaders for such civs from a bunch of basic, generic assets. With some respect to their "native culture".
    Of course they wouldn't be voiced, but goddamnit, I can accept this minor exception for sake of finally this game having this basic historical feature, priceless for the difficulty level and general dynamism.


    Difficulty levelling in civ series is ridiculous for a long time. 8 difficulty levels of which first three are basically garbage nobody plays and which could be as well rolled into one "beginner semi-tutorial family-friendly casual-friendly reddit-friendly" setting. Prince and King which are almost identical and could be as well rolled into "normal" setting, no buffs for player or AI. And then last free difficulty levels, with gigantic jump between each one, up to Deity which ranges from borderline impossible in civ4 to "entirely doable, just goddamn infuriating". Let's just turn them into "very hard but still fair" hybrid of Emperor and Immortal and "we wanna please masochists, but this time do it in more interesting way" Deity.

    Then, on top of that, slap some XCOM-style (or Paradox-style) Ironman optional setting "autosave each turn, no coming back" and some other optional hilarity such as, IDK, hardcore mode which makes mere survival until late game an achievement in itself. Because for example this mode is entirely unchained in random game - ruining events, or makes political system hilariously unstable and empires rise and fall as rapidly as IRL, or because your interface is crippled in some fun "realistic" way (for example you can't choose specific techs to reserach, just nudge your science in a general direction you wanna follow; or for example the further cities are, the more autonomous they are, and this only gets better with eras).

    You end up with much better difficulty system, fitting modern era. Modern era IRL, not in civ series.

    This series needs a revolution in many, many outdated, stale and stagnant aspects. Comparing jump between civ2 and civ3, or civ3 and civ4, or civ4 and civ5, most recent "jump" was not quite as remarkable. Civ6 has inherited a lot of civ5 mediocre solutions and "traditional" features. Its most revolutionary changes were unstacked cities, which didn't however revolutionize the fundamental "linear accumulation of yields, same across all ages" economy; second tech tree which is, well, second tech tree; and by GS climate and disasters (very cool mechanic but hardly fundamental).

    The biggest problem is combat and AI. I am absolutely convinced there is no damn way to teach AI on the current technological level how to handle 1UPT in the way it works in civ. It is just a combat system perfectly nightmarish to program AI for. You need a ton of effort, time and resources to make it go from "catatonic" to "mentally challenged", before you hit the glass ceiling of "we don't wanna make every AI turn last 30 minutes". I'd be fully ready to abandon 1UPT entirely, if its cost is an inability for AI to endanger humans with warfare from early till late game, consistently, without a need of years of patching.
    I hated stacks as well they way they worked in old civs and old 4X games in general, so I'd be for every creative solution making combat less unbearable for AI. And army management and logistics less tedious for the human player ("it's time to click 100 times per turn to move 50 units across the sea"). Limited stacks up to 4 or 8 units for example, performing automated battles, where the strategy lies in the composition and quality of troops and where to engage the enemy, and army movement tedium is reduced 4-8 times.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  6. Kaan Boztepe

    Kaan Boztepe Prince

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    They literally patented their algoritms that ensure that the encounters and storyline bosses are always at the same difficulty relative to your level&skills as to prevent you from accidentally triggering an encounter that would kill you.
    The example of solving puzzles and exploring was from morrowind to skyrim ( same franchise 20 year difference ) .
    The MMORPG player has become a mailman with GPS.
    Most console games have the button that need to be pressed at what time exactly even shown on screen. God forbid you should miss a potantial combo.

    My point was that the new audience doesnt like a challenge , they want entertainment , lots of shiny new animations and god forbid any form of difficulty that cannot be overcome by money ( microtransaction ) . I dont speak for the audience here at this forum but just check what the reddit forums and game official forums are discussing.

    I hope that Firaxis goes the ARPG difficulty level adjustment way that is now being implemented by every game where a new higher difficulty is unlocked as soon as you complete the highest one available.
     
  7. Jay247

    Jay247 Chieftain

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    soooo.. anyone got ANY idea on when were gonna hear something? the wait is driving me insane lol
     
  8. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    Nope. But I will be keeping a closer watch for announcement videos this week than I have the past few weeks due to the possible Runner - Ed Beach - Boston Marathon connection.

    But no one here has any real idea.
     
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  9. Jimdigriz

    Jimdigriz Prince

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    If we are gonna start that, I can dimly remember the original Rebelstar Raiders! :) (I got my dad to buy it because I liked the box art!).
     
  10. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    I have plans on completing my 2 epic games with the smooth difficulty + Sui Generis mod next week. France and China. Not sure if i could pull off both emperor culture victories. I wont pay that much attention to civfanatics. Knowing firaxis they are going to troll me and drop a patch update this thursday which would ruin my 2 saves.
     
  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Making a World War and Cold War as a casus belli would be interesting late game.
    Word War unlocked at Mobilization Civic: Declaration of war on someone who has wronged or denounced either you or your allies. Both you and the other Civ you declare war on must be in an active alliance.
    Cold War unlocked at Cold War Civic: Non-aggression declaration of war against someone who has built a nuclear weapon/completed nuclear project. Sanctions can be put to vote on Civs with the world Congress when a cold war is active. Breaking a Cold War, with another declaration of war, results in massive grievances against the aggressive Civ.
     
  12. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Alright, it's 20th of April in Central Europe. I'm setting mild hopes for today.
     
  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    It's Sunday here in the US. I wouldn't get your hopes up. ;)
     
  14. JungleTreetops

    JungleTreetops Chieftain

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    In HOI4 they have a system for spies where instead of using selective portraits the computer would generate a character from a bunch of parts (head, clothing, accessories). This is only 2D, however, and for 3D I'm not exactly sure how that would work.
    Civ is based upon immortal leaders leading long-dead but immortal empires, and that is the face of the game. But I would love to have a Civ with Civilizations like Germany, but you start out as a smaller civ like Bavaria, Hanover, Pomerania or Saxony, or Russia with Novgorod, Perm, and Moscovy. Obviously, 3D leaders can't be generated for all of those, but 2D leaders are certainly possible. The only problem then would be the colours. If you conquered any one of the minor civs of a major civ, they would start to band up. Think of Greece and the Delian League (literally Pericles's ability), or the HRE when attacked by Napoleonic France. These all helped to form a national identity of which they joined to be a common nation.

    Also, I might have mentioned before but there should be some sort of ultimatum Casus belli through the demands system because Demands don't do anything. And make the AI actually use Formal Wars when they denounce you, instead of only using Surprise Wars.

    Oh well. I could only dream. Let's hope that an announcement comes soon, and that the recent announcement of Humankind causes Firaxis to step up their game.
     
  15. Nerevatar

    Nerevatar Warlord

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    You might want to check out Humankind by Amplitude, given your interest. There is an active sub forum here on civfanatics.
     
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  16. Air Marshal Nguyen

    Air Marshal Nguyen Chieftain

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    My totally outrageous dream that will never happen.

    What I call Civ-Scenario's.

    These are Civ's that have something like a scenario, or a mini-scenario, built into their gameplay.

    For example. Imagine you are playing Vietnam led by the Trung Sisters. You hit either industrial or modern era, and then your leader changes to Ho Chi Minh as you have gone through a Communist revolution.

    A mini-scenario then plays out where you get invaded (they could just potentially spawn in units) and you get defensive bonuses. If you win you continue the game in a permanent Heroic age or something. To fight the mini-scenario you get some special units and/or mechanics.

    Would never happen, but would be cool.
     
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  17. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    I like this idea. :)
     
  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'm looking forward to tomorrow since Tuesdays are usually announcement days and one day after the 20th.
     
  19. Kaan Boztepe

    Kaan Boztepe Prince

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    temper your expectations , chimera squad gets released this weekend. so earliest is next week
     
  20. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    In case nothing happens, there's still EU4 development diary on Tuesday so I'll get satisfied with something else. Also, a new Humankind civ card for me to check on Twitter.
     
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