G-Major 137

[ZPV]

I just realized that Representation doesn't scale for Marathon. Tech costs are much higher, but Rep specialists still give only +3.

Well you do get +3 for 3 times as long...

 

[Pangaea]

Much easier to peace vassal if you border him, because then he is a land target, and will fear you more easily. This wasn't the case in my game as Mansa was miles away, but he still peace vassaled to me. Think I had 2.40 his power when he did.

With a strong (AI) army it may not even be possible. IIRC, the AI also has to have an army below the average, which is why I gave up the hope of peace vassaling Hammurabi in my current game. He was simply too strong, relatively speaking.

There are probably some XML values in play, because I think I've heard you need three times the power when the AI isn't a land target, and 1.5 when he is. Mansa was 2.4, so maybe it's easier with him.

No idea if IronHead used that or other tricks in his impressive game.

Got a 30% GE! \o/

 

[Seraiel]

Geez i was seting up my whole game to peace vassal Mansa and now hes too strong .

What circustances are needed ( i dont know how to say it) for AI, except diplo, so he can peace vassal to me ?.

Points? army power ? Where i can check it ?

You need either 1.5 times his power + 8 tiles of shared border, or 3 times his power. You always need either double land or double pop additionally, but that shouldn't be a problem for you in this game.

I just realized that Representation doesn't scale for Marathon. Tech costs are much higher, but Rep specialists still give only +3.

Great, everybody has his own phase of n00bishness since I started in S&T .

REP ofc. scales with Marathon shulec. The Specialists give the same, but you have 3 times the turns on which they give their benefit

[EDIT]

Ninja'd by ZPV.

 

[Seraiel]

That is why I am here too learning some great stuff playing an immortals rush against teams so lots of pure gold here. Shulek's The whip overflow into gold won't work for me either failed first time like you did Unlike you as I am playing Vanilla 1.61 I think the overflow is simply being lost

The OF-trick only works in BUG and BUFFY versions, so BtS. In those two, the bug that OF simply vanishes was fixed. This can't be the problem of shulec, because shulec must need to play with BUFFY 3.19.003 as otherwise, his game wouldn't be legit for HoF.

And as the high score by IronHead was set using all victory conditions you would not have a comparable game (excluding BtS 1.71 update) if Dom. limit was bigger or off.

Anyone know if that trick was used in Ironheads game?

I feel it is exploiting poor code in the BtS expansion pack rather than the normal AI stupidity that most exploits avail of.
If the AI had some mechanism for reviewing trades like they do for begging that would by Ok but as there is no code for them it feels like cheating. But that will be argued endlessly in another thread. (always wanted to use that)

You guys are putting 120 hours into the game and still posting enough to make this thread seem endless I sat down to read from post page 40 to page 80 and you are up to 92 94 already

I guess that exploit wasn't used in Ironhead's game, otherwise we already would know about it and exploit it too.

And don't forget to read the pages 1-40 .

 

[Seraiel]

@ ZPV: You reached Sushi exactly on the same turn as I did. Now just make sure, that you lose some turns elsewhere, and we can get along fine .

 

[shulec]

You need either 1.5 times his power + 8 tiles of shared border, or 3 times his power. You always need either double land or double pop additionally, but that shouldn't be a problem for you in this game.



Great, everybody has its own phase of n00bishness since I started in S&T .

REP ofc. scales with Marathon shulec. The Specialists give the same, but you have 3 times the turns on which they give their benefit

[EDIT]

Ninja'd by ZPV.

Marathon Noob! I will wear that with pride!

 

[Testhero]

But something totally different:

How do you plan with the GPs that you need for the next GA? Do you only hire scientists in very few cities, so those just get ready when they're needed, or, do you do like me, and make 5 Scientist cities, 5 Merchant cities and 3 Artist cities. I'm somehow afraid, that I again stunt growth, but GPs get more expensive, you know, so the last one's will probably again take 50T, so I thought to better start earlier than later.

In my extensive reading of the S&T forum I came upon an article that updated the Great People planning and math now that so much more of the game is known well.

The author extensively breaks down the break points for generating great people points.

After the basics food, buildings, unpolluted GPP pools which you have (and I am copying in my game thanks)

Most of your great people will be generated either in your capital or GPPfarm usually one or two in the capital untill you set up a GPPFarm. often the first from a mixed GPP pool as your needs mean building wonders where you have the hammers or pop to whip.
Again you have that down
Then it gets into the math and charts.
Your third most productive GPP city will only generate a third or less of your GPP. and a fourth is statistically unlikly to catch up and produce any in a short game unless you delay the date/turn the GPP will be generated by.
The reason to accept the last is to trade off a later GPP for a better chance at the type of gpp you want.
Fifth or more cities seldom catch up to produce any GP so once again specilization pays off in CivIV
there is also information on selecting where to put the National Epic to change the timing of when you get the Great persons.

Why are they great people rather than great men ? I can't remember any Female GPs' in any of my games?

 

[Seraiel]

I think Marie Curie is in the game, maybe also her husband, not sure about that all GP are male.

Regarding creating GP:

In games like this, I try to create as many GPs as possible or at least as helpful, therefore I have a lot more GP-Farms than you expect, like 5-10 cities that try to create a GP, not only the capital and the NE-city. The capital is only good for an early GS btw., because it needs to work its tiles, and Oxford pollutes its GP-pool.

I think the difference is, that to create GPs, I run Caste + Pacifism + a Golden Age and by that get 300% of the you think of. Also, hiring Specialists of one type is np with Caste.

When I got no possibility to run Caste, I try to only hire Specialists that are useful, so if I want to run a 3 person GA and have 2 Scientists in city 1, 4 Merchants in city 2 and 2 Artists in city 3, then I hire Engineers and Spies in city 1 and Prophets in city 3. Like this I'm garantueed to get 3 different GPs and with 4 Specialists / city, getting enough should be np.

 

[WastinTime]

I got dogpiled (to no real harm) on my first war after Alphabet, and after that I made sure either to bribe everyone against everyone else or else beg/demand 10 gold for a peace treaty. It's the first 10 turns of a war when the AI is most likely to bribe each other to join in.

Since there is so much good info kept in this thread, we should copy and paste the details on this. I don't have the odds handy, but I think it's much more extreme than you wrote :"first 10 turns....most likely to bribe..."
I've been told it's something like 95%+ likely to happen on the first turn of war. Some chance I can't recall on turn 2, and then almost no chance of bribes happening later.

Anyone have the real answer handy?

 

[Pangaea]

Why are they great people rather than great men ? I can't remember any Female GPs' in any of my games?

Jeanne d'Arc is in the game too. Most are men, though, which is natural I suppose because many of the great people are from centuries past, and women didn't exactly have as free a position to delve deeply into scientific disciplines back then.

 

[ZPV]

Since there is so much good info kept in this thread, we should copy and paste the details on this. I don't have the odds handy, but I think it's much more extreme than you wrote :"first 10 turns....most likely to bribe..."
I've been told it's something like 95%+ likely to happen on the first turn of war. Some chance I can't recall on turn 2, and then almost no chance of bribes happening later.

Anyone have the real answer handy?

I don't remember for sure how the turn progression works, and how the random number generator works. If I've remembered right, the progression is:

Same turn: 1/2
turn + 1:  1/3
turn + 2:  1/4
turn + 3:  1/5
turn + 4:  1/18
turn + 5:  1/22
turn + 6:  1/26
turn + 7:  1/30
turn + 8:  1/34
turn + 9:  1/38
thereafter: 1/41

Spoiler :

My assumptions are: same turn: atWarCounter = 0, and GetSorenRandNum(n) takes values 0 to n.

except for Pacal who has a smaller chance roughly 2/3 everyone else, with some rounding errors in the early turns.
AIs that dogpiled you skip several turns ahead in the schedule, so their chances of bribing someone else are low.

 

[Pangaea]

ing ucnt and a half. This game and its rNG can go and itself with a rusty wrench. ing and -ery is evil.

7 fights in a row with 70-80%. 7 losses.

off. Just off.

 

[Testhero]

You use a calculator to divide 4200 by 73?
Philistine.

Philistine's don't divide! no abacus!

Or HBR

 

[Pangaea]

I've now reached the point where I'm 1 turn from Sushi - which will be founded t323 which feels a bit late.
Kremlin came 3 turns after Communism, and National Park is done. Wall Street will be done next turn too.

Much later (what else is new?) but I have Sushi in 120AD, turn 362. Almost 400 years better than last game, so at least I'm doing well in that regard (actually, Sushi is over 400 years better, but I founded Mining Inc first there, in 505AD). Wall Street miles from done, not got all the Banks yet, but National Park almost complete. Have a +89 Shrine, and another +56 Shrine, so pleased with those. The latter was conquered with all gold multiplier buildings intact too, which was very nice

Vassals aren't quite up to speed, they're too late with RP and I had to do Corps myself. Steel is useless too, so I'm doing that plus some turns into Physics until Asoka finishes RP. Would feel like a waste to do RP too myself when Asoka is 12 turns from finishing it (he has teched about 75% of it).

Elizabeth has one city left, but I'm waiting to take it because I need some spies over there to grab her stash of 1500. Worth it I reckon...

When all her cities come out of resistance, I'll probably have around 35% land. So a bit short of where I want to be, but taking on Pericles or Hammurabi would be messy, and they have more land than I could get anyway, if I want to grab some resources in the NW. Unfortunately I'm much later to that than in the first game, where I had a few cities by 1AD, but I needed coastal cities first, and the AIs were later to Optics.

Got Kremlin one turn before founding Sushi, so that worked out okay. Chopped 4x 74 + the last BFC forest in the capital, and slow-built the rest. Whipped some good OF into it as well. Currently half-way through the Taj GA (so yay, I got it this time). Naturally GP plans will go out the window when going back to slavery. Sorting out all execs in 5 turns is not for mortal men.

This is actually the very first time I've founded Sushi before Mining, so will be interesting to see how brutal the costs are when I don't have high-hammer cities building Wealth to compensate.

 

[Testhero]

Regarding creating GP:

In games like this, I try to create as many GPs as possible or at least as helpful, therefore I have a lot more GP-Farms than you expect, like 5-10 cities that try to create a GP, not only the capital and the NE-city. The capital is only good for an early GS btw., because it needs to work its tiles, and Oxford pollutes its GP-pool.

Yep it might pump out a great prophet at the 200/pts/GP mark to get a shrine if unlike in your games it is decided to found an early religion. or even a chance at a second GS
before Oxford plenty of examples of why not to do this in the 94 pages of thread so moving along

I think the difference is, that to create GPs, I run Caste + Pacifism + a Golden Age and by that get 300% of the you think of. Also, hiring Specialists of one type is np with Caste.

and as the scientist, merchant then Artist are very usefull GP that works out quite well leaving only the GE for mining as the hard man to get as almost everyone demonstrated this gauntlet.
and as your National Epic city is at 400% it is a near certainty that it will produce an Great Person every single golden age.

So now some questions[ (#1)
With your non NE GP farms are you trying to produce a great person per GPfarm city every golden age?

Like when in the 2GP Golden Age, setting up for the 3 person golden age. Do you set up the NE and the 2 next highest farms in GP points to produce the 3 great people and then the next 4 cities highest in GPpoints to work at generating 4 more different GP for the next 4 person Golden Age. and the last 3 cities to try for the next GP you need for bulbing a tech or rushing a wonder?

When I got no possibility to run Caste, I try to only hire Specialists that are useful, so if I want to run a 3 person GA and have 2 Scientists in city 1, 4 Merchants in city 2 and 2 Artists in city 3, then I hire Engineers and Spies in city 1 and Prophets in city 3. Like this I'm guaranteed to get 3 different GPs and with 4 Specialists / city, getting enough should be np.

So I get that
city 1 will produce either a scientist or an engineer or spy
city 2 will produce a merchant
City 3 will produce an artist or prophet

What will cities 4 to 10 be doing at that time adding specialists to boost their GPP generation or something else like growing, infrastructure, Wealth, Money or troops?

One thing I am trying to figure out is the optimum number of GPfarms to build especially in a short game like this one finishing pre 1000. I ask you specifically as you canceled your plans for a 5 GP Golden Age.
Did you think you had the right amount of farms?
would more cities have enabled you to generate enough GP soon enough for the fifth Golden Age?
or would of less let you still generate as many GP as you did while leaving you to use the cities for other things?

Shame I am not running BtS I could look through your game logs and assuage my curiosity about which cities produced gp and when.

#1 assumes the 5 (presumably best) to 10 GP farms you mention

 

[Testhero]

How many turns did everyone spend in anarchy changing civics and religions ?

 

[Pangaea]

How many turns did everyone spend in anarchy changing civics and religions ?

Early slavery was 2 turns I believe, and later I changed to Rep+Buro, which was 4 turns. This was probably a mistake and I should have gone with OR too. In the first Golden Age I changed to Pacifism and finally chose a religion.

On Marathon so many is required that you're not going to get a GP from the main GPFarms every GA, not even the NE city a bit into the game. 3000 for instance isn't something you get in a jiffy, and also keep in mind that the Golden Ages do not scale properly. GP costs three times as much as on normal speed, but the GA only lasts twice as long, so 24 turns when fuelled by MoM.

 

[Pangaea]

Important NEWSFLASH! everybody.

Spoiler :

Spreading Sushi is expensive!

 

[Testhero]

Early slavery was 2 turns I believe, and later I changed to Rep+Buro, which was 4 turns. This was probably a mistake and I should have gone with OR too. In the first Golden Age I changed to Pacifism and finally chose a religion.

Wow you really kept down the turns of anarchy! 6 turns that should have been 7 the rest all falling being in Golden Ages to push

On Marathon so many is required that you're not going to get a GP from the main GPFarms every GA, not even the NE city a bit into the game. 3000 for instance isn't something you get in a jiffy, and also keep in mind that the Golden Ages do not scale properly. GP costs three times as much as on normal speed, but the GA only lasts twice as long, so 24 turns when fueled by MoM.

So Pangaea your Farms are effectively out of your economy the whole game producing :GPoints
btw congrats on your latest 4 seafood two food farm you screenied

Important NEWSFLASH! everybody!

Spoiler :

Spreading Sushi is expensive!

You knew that! that is why like Seraiel you tried to get out mining first unlike WastingTime who had some crazed genius master-plan to somehow pay for it or yyheh who looks like he is going to more selectively spread rather than blanketing his whole empire.

So many wonders you have too get

1. Academy

Pyramids Great Library MoM, Wall Street, Oxford University
So many others you have to get to play a competitive game. (Oracle,) Hanging Gardens, Great Lighthouse, Taj ,Heroic Epic, National Epic, National park (later SoL and perhaps HS if you missed both the Mids&HG)

While competing with the occasional IND leaders
and that is all before Apollo project and 12-16 Space Ship parts

 

[Testhero]

Early slavery was 2 turns I believe, and later I changed to Rep+Buro, which was 4 turns. This was probably a mistake and I should have gone with OR too. In the first Golden Age I changed to Pacifism and finally chose a religion.

Wow! You really kept down the turns of anarchy!
6 turns that should have been 7 the rest being in Golden Ages to push
Might be one of the strongest parts of your game

On Marathon so many is required that you're not going to get a GP from the main GPFarms every GA, not even the NE city a bit into the game. 3000 for instance isn't something you get in a jiffy, and also keep in mind that the Golden Ages do not scale properly. GP costs three times as much as on normal speed, but the GA only lasts twice as long, so 24 turns when fueled by MoM.

So Pangaea your Farms are effectively out of your economy the whole game producing :GP: Points?
btw congrats on your latest 4 seafood two food farm you screenied

Important NEWSFLASH! everybody!

Spoiler :

Spreading Sushi is expensive!

You knew that! that is why like Seraiel you tried to get out mining first unlike WastingTime who had some crazed genius master-plan to somehow pay for it or yyheh who looks like he is going to more selectively spread Sushi GMBH rather than blanketing his whole empire.

So many wonders you have too get.
AcademyPyramids Great Library MoM, Wall Street, Oxford University
So many others you have to get to play a competitive game. (Oracle,) Hanging Gardens, Great Lighthouse, Taj Mahal, Heroic Epic, National Epic, National park (later SoL and perhaps Hagia Sophia if you missed both the Mids&HG)

While competing with the occasional IND leaders
and that is all before Apollo Project (which can't be rushed) and then 12-16 Space Ship parts. Did anyone launch short of the full 16?
almost needs a Financial/Industrious leader (Hugh deLacy?)