GEM Stage 4: Cities & Policies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
Yes, that'd help economy issues, but isn't really related to this thread.
Actually, the mentor's hall which I'd forgotten might mean the C) policy would be a bit strong, maybe +1 science per science building and +25% science building strength would be appropriate for a Wide science boost.
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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
that proposal seems a bit too one-directional to me. it could use another policy that's not straight science, something like:
A) Free great scientist, +2 science for scientists, bonus to GP generation.
B) Free science building in oldest 4 cities, +15% science for universities.
C) +2 science on all science buildings, +25% production speed for science buildings.
D) +1 happy for universities, public schools, science labs. (requires C)
E) +1 science on trading posts, +5 science for academies.
and then replace C with something more interesting that's not science.
A) Free great scientist, +2 science for scientists, bonus to GP generation.
B) Free science building in oldest 4 cities, +15% science for universities.
C) +2 science on all science buildings, +25% production speed for science buildings.
D) +1 happy for universities, public schools, science labs. (requires C)
E) +1 science on trading posts, +5 science for academies.
and then replace C with something more interesting that's not science.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm open to some non-science boosts, in that I guess I could see the cumulative effect on science from the whole tree could be too large.
But I think it makes sense for the scientist bonus to come with the academy boost; both boost a specialist playstyle.
I think the idea behind the science on harbors benefit is that otherwise coastal empires are a bit screwed, because the're getting gold from coast tiles rather than trading posts, so that effect seems reasonable.
GP generation seems like it fits more in Freedom/Tradition than rationalism, I think it's better if Commerce/Order/Rationalism etc. just boost the value of their particular specialists and great people rather than boosting GP production.
I can't think of any other good alternative effects now, I'll post if I think of anything good.
But I think it makes sense for the scientist bonus to come with the academy boost; both boost a specialist playstyle.
I think the idea behind the science on harbors benefit is that otherwise coastal empires are a bit screwed, because the're getting gold from coast tiles rather than trading posts, so that effect seems reasonable.
GP generation seems like it fits more in Freedom/Tradition than rationalism, I think it's better if Commerce/Order/Rationalism etc. just boost the value of their particular specialists and great people rather than boosting GP production.
I can't think of any other good alternative effects now, I'll post if I think of anything good.
wobuffet
Barbarian
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 1,248
In general, I'd say no more than 4 of the 7 Social Policies in any given SP tree should primarily affect the same yield. "Does A give me more 
beakers per turn, or does B?" is not an interesting question, because it's just math (I like math, but I don't play Civ to do math!).
Questions like "Do I need
Happiness or Science right now?" or "Would 
Culture from Science buildings or simply more beakers do me more good right now?" comprise much more interesting gameplay decisions, in my opinion.
beakers per turn, or does B?" is not an interesting question, because it's just math (I like math, but I don't play Civ to do math!).Questions like "Do I need
Happiness or Science right now?" or "Would Culture from Science buildings or simply more beakers do me more good right now?" comprise much more interesting gameplay decisions, in my opinion.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I think of culture as a society's values, traditions, stories, and heritage. Nomadic warfare, gladiators, chivalry, and bushido are part of the cultural heritage of Native Americans, Rome, Europe, and Japan (respectively). These were also inspirations for stories, paintings, and plays. I do recognize culture is a controversial subject. 
Something I'm curious about is how many people actually trade away gold-per-turn to AIs? I'm usually trying to get gold from the AI, not give it away. It's something we could take a poll about. What could the options be?
+20% science while happy is similar to +15% gold from the Commerce opener (though with differences in implementation). The science one mainly helps peaceful players since they tend to stay happy more often. I would be okay with dropping the opener back to 15% science if people feel peaceful research goes too fast in the late game.
Some people dislike free buildings or +production for construction, and the effects are similar (lets us get buildings faster), so I'd like to limit the tree to one of those two effects. Improving science from all specialists instead of only scientists helps reduce the super-science focus in the tree, since we can get the bonus while using a non-scientist specialist.
What if we swap the free scientist with the opener, if most people feel the opener is stronger than the scientist?
Something I'm curious about is how many people actually trade away gold-per-turn to AIs? I'm usually trying to get gold from the AI, not give it away. It's something we could take a poll about. What could the options be?
+20% science while happy is similar to +15% gold from the Commerce opener (though with differences in implementation). The science one mainly helps peaceful players since they tend to stay happy more often. I would be okay with dropping the opener back to 15% science if people feel peaceful research goes too fast in the late game.
Some people dislike free buildings or +production for construction, and the effects are similar (lets us get buildings faster), so I'd like to limit the tree to one of those two effects. Improving science from all specialists instead of only scientists helps reduce the super-science focus in the tree, since we can get the bonus while using a non-scientist specialist.
What if we swap the free scientist with the opener, if most people feel the opener is stronger than the scientist?
Attachments
I can't recall giving the AI money.
BTS I can remember buying off aggressive AIs to get them to stop pillaging once I blasted apart their initial assault(s) if I had a smaller army (usually early game). I can't remember ever paying money in Civ5. For anything.
BTS I can remember buying off aggressive AIs to get them to stop pillaging once I blasted apart their initial assault(s) if I had a smaller army (usually early game). I can't remember ever paying money in Civ5. For anything.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Maybe.
Why do you think that secularism should boost all specialists, not just scientists? Why no boost for academies?
Why do you think that secularism should boost all specialists, not just scientists? Why no boost for academies?
No other GI tiles and no other specialists are improved at this point. So adding it back in for one type would probably mean adding it for the other 4 for balance of the GPs and specialists. The GI tiles were changed to base +8 yields with a +7 tech boost from the earlier techs that used to grant such things (citadels 3/3, with a 3/3 boost). Which probably makes them powerful enough without +5 more from policies.
I think it's okay for it as just "specialists" instead of just scientists. It's very much like the +1
on Statue of Liberty, it's the GK default as is and seems more powerful than just on scientists (and can be extracted as educated elites of some kind).
I think it's okay for it as just "specialists" instead of just scientists. It's very much like the +1
on Statue of Liberty, it's the GK default as is and seems more powerful than just on scientists (and can be extracted as educated elites of some kind).I personally feel the 15% (or 20% in the current version) science while happy is the most powerful policy in the knowledge tree and should not be the opener.
Science is the fundamental currency of Civilization, it drives everything else. It gives more economic ability, more terraforming, better units, stronger cities, better buildings, etc. I don't mind that the policy exists, but it should not be so easy to grab.
Science is the fundamental currency of Civilization, it drives everything else. It gives more economic ability, more terraforming, better units, stronger cities, better buildings, etc. I don't mind that the policy exists, but it should not be so easy to grab.
Not 100% true. While it usually is important, gold can be an even more important resource. It all depends on which strategy you utilize. With much gold you can get a lot of research deals, or specialize you entire infrastructure in very few turns. On emperor difficulty or below you have no problem whatsoever staying ahead even without this bonus. And gold you can get a lot without much research if you desire, e.g. with religion or great merchants.
wobuffet
Barbarian
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 1,248
I really like this change. With GIs' effectiveness less closely tied to SP tree choice and thus to the victory condition pursued, now building Academies in Culture games and Landmarks in Science games, in particular, should be much more attractive.
Strongly agree with the 2nd part.
This is also why (see my previous post) I strongly feel that only a few policies in the Knowledge SP tree should (significantly) boost Science output. A tech leader will crush all other Civs in its military prowess, not to mention Gold and Science output.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
This is another reason why I changed back to policies that improve all specialists, instead of a specific specialist.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Ah, yes.
This is my preference: Order should have + production for engineers and a bonus for manufactories; Commerce should have +gold and a bonus on customhouses (can go with the trade mission bonus), etc.
Just a suggestion, when other ai's want to team up somewhere on the message area have a box showing who would hate that deal (enemy civs) and if possible who would welcome it. (who already is that civ's ally or would consider allying it too)
http://content.screencast.com/users/Hawawaa/folders/Civ%205%20Vanilla/media/8f3a4b5d-9f87-4688-86ad-7b85f9595bde/08.31.2012-17.53.png
http://content.screencast.com/users/Hawawaa/folders/Civ%205%20Vanilla/media/8f3a4b5d-9f87-4688-86ad-7b85f9595bde/08.31.2012-17.53.png
Bernd-das-Brot
Prince
After some games in the last 2 weeks, I can say I really like the overhauled policies. They are way better than vanilla G&Ks. There are only a few things I think I would change:
-I see it has been posted above and I can only agree: The knowlegde-opener is way too powerful. I would say it is the strongest policy in the whole game! Swap it with the free scientist and make it 10-15 % would still be one of the best policies, but not so overpowered.
- Scholasticism is too weak. Had 5 CS-Ally (nearly half the ones in the game in industrial age) and it only generated unimportant 17 beakers per turn. Should be at least ~x1,3-1,5.
- Charity a bit stronger. Something like 7,5% per building or +5% shrine, +10% temple, +5% else.
- I like the new tradition opener, but it works a bit strange for the AI. At least on immortal the AIs choosing tradition get huge amounts of culture from it, not only getting policies much faster than the player (would be okay, its immortal), but also at double rate than AIs choosing honor or liberty, which is a bit too much, I think.
- +1 movement for civilians should be on a modern tech and not on a medieval policiy. I see no link between commerce and fast moving workers/GPs.
-I see it has been posted above and I can only agree: The knowlegde-opener is way too powerful. I would say it is the strongest policy in the whole game! Swap it with the free scientist and make it 10-15 % would still be one of the best policies, but not so overpowered.
- Scholasticism is too weak. Had 5 CS-Ally (nearly half the ones in the game in industrial age) and it only generated unimportant 17 beakers per turn. Should be at least ~x1,3-1,5.
- Charity a bit stronger. Something like 7,5% per building or +5% shrine, +10% temple, +5% else.
- I like the new tradition opener, but it works a bit strange for the AI. At least on immortal the AIs choosing tradition get huge amounts of culture from it, not only getting policies much faster than the player (would be okay, its immortal), but also at double rate than AIs choosing honor or liberty, which is a bit too much, I think.
- +1 movement for civilians should be on a modern tech and not on a medieval policiy. I see no link between commerce and fast moving workers/GPs.
The tradition opener seems to be related to working out the AI happiness. They've been getting 30-50 happiness pretty early on in my test games with consistency. Which means they get a ton of culture with the tradition opener.
Charity as +gold% is a place holder in the piety tree until other changes are modded in I think. It might stick around as a bonus feature. I imagine both this and the proposed changes to the knowledge tree, among a couple others (the specialist bonus in liberty), will be revisited as other features come online and are working correctly.
Charity as +gold% is a place holder in the piety tree until other changes are modded in I think. It might stick around as a bonus feature. I imagine both this and the proposed changes to the knowledge tree, among a couple others (the specialist bonus in liberty), will be revisited as other features come online and are working correctly.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I intended to swap the Knowledge opener with the free great scientist... not sure how I forgot to do that. I'll get it in the next version.
