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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
are artist specialists balanced for the new culture paradigm with doubled cost for policies?
GEM Stage 4: Cities & Policies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Wanted to give my latest take on the policies having gotten to run through them a lot with this current version.
Commerce - Right this is my favorite tree overall. I use the policies consistently in most games I play.
Opener - Very nice. The 15% bonus gives a lot of gold, and great merchants with faith is solid.
Mercantilism - All of the benefits here have been tried in other forms with varying levels of success. I find that the bonuses together finally feels right.
Guilds - I would say the weakest of the commerce policies but still a good one and has good synergy with the faith buying the opener allows.
Protectionism - Just solid.
Merchant Navy - The navy bonus has always been either too weak or too deep in the tree. Now combined with the naval building bonus this one is a great policy for coastal empires.
Patent Law - After Mercantilism, this is the policy that provides the actual raw gold in my games.
Liberty - This has become my default early game tree.
Opener - By far the lamest opener currently. It has its use, but there is nothing interesting about it at all.
Meritocracy - This one has a great balance of use. The gold/happiness bump is great for early game, the culture aspect kicks in a bit later. I find this is the policy I will dip into liberty for just to ensure my large empire doesn't get bogged on culture.
In fact, in some ways I feel this policy is a requirement if I'm going a large empire and I want to have any amount of policies, but that could be a perception I don't know how much actually mechanical impact the policy has.
Citizenship - A good bonus all around.
Collective Rule - Ironically I find this policy isn't that useful to me anymore, when it used to be the reason to go liberty. With the version's current money, I generally can buy my own settlers now, I almost never make them. And meritocracy can get me the money I need to buy one plus all of its other benefits. So I sometimes use it for the third city but its not as critical.
Representation - Probably one of the best happy policies in the game right now.
Republic - The prod bonus is just okay, but getting free walls in every city is nice...its still near the bottom of the list but I don't consider it a waste.
Finisher - Right now I think its one of the best finishers part for its strength and part for the earlyness that I can get it. The +2 prod for every specialist is huge late game when my growth starts to taper off and early game it makes an engineer more powerful than a mined hill with iron working, so I can for great engineers with 0 penalty.
Tradition -
Opener - This actually racks a lot of culture especially early game. A well manged tall empire can often get a lot of happiness so it can generate a sizable portion of your culture.
Ceremonial Rites - Its okay, but I really don't like the build buildings mechanic, so its not nearly as interesting as other policies.
Monarchy - This one is a great one, and sometimes worth a dip into the tradition pool just to pick up. Again all of the bonuses individually wouldn't be worth it, but packaged together it makes it work.
Landed Elite - Another decent one especially if gotten early. Lower on the list than many but still useful.
Oligarchy - It has its uses, but I think its a very boring policy. Also, the 50% bonus to ranged attack has a big swinging effect on city strength.
Aristocracy - wonder bonuses are always useful, and that extra little culture bonus just sweetens the pot.
Finisher - Solid finisher. honestly the 200% border speed is something I miss when going liberty orders.
Honor - I've been trying it out more lately, and its come a long way in that a peacenick like me considers using it from time to time. I will say that I think honor's biggest issue is it doesn't have effective happy control for conquest like nationalism. If I'm conquering I have an expensive army and happiness problems. Professional Army helps the expense, but military caste doesn't really help the happy that much.
Opener - Because barbs are so rampant now with the changes, the opener is really good, and its such a nice carrot for peacenicks to go honor. Hey I get a little better at fighting barbs, and I can make a ton of culture.
Military Tradition - Mediocre but okay.
Military Caste - Mediocre but okay.
Professional Army - Imo, THE reason to take honor. The upgrade reduction is great, and the gold pillaging is wonderful. When I take honor (again as a peacenick), its mainly to pick this one up. That way when I'm fighting barbs I'm getting culture and money...and suddenly going to war isn't so bad.
Warrior Code - One of the weakest policies in the game imo. I feel like this one needs to be packaged with another bonus.
Discipline - The most pure military policy, its solid at making your army stronger.
Finisher - Its an okay finisher, but I like that the tree as a whole offers a lot of cultural avenues. The ability to play a conqueror going for a culture victory has appeal and this tree tries to offer that.
Piety - For me, the best use of piety has been to jumpstart a religion. I can still get religion benefits without focusing on the infrastructure. Overall though I would still say its a weak tree.
Opener - Basically gives you a pantheon which is solid.
Inspiration - Any avenue to gain culture when you are going for a culture victory is useful but for anything else its kind of mediocre.
Unity - Generally this nets me 2 GAs (one immediate and one extra happy one). I don't know the overall benefit but I would say its pretty useful.
Tolerance - An okay happy policy.
Charity - Gives more use to the religious buildings, I wish it just had a little bit more to it.
Devotion - This combined with the opener provides the springboard to get my religion up and running. So for that its very useful, otherwise its mediocre.
Finisher - If it effect great person buying it would be useful. Else its far and away the weakest finisher in the game.
Patronage
Opener - The opener is actually so good that it tempts me to go down this tree when I normally would not. The opener + promise to protect nets you an automatic CS friend. It is possible to get friendships with all CS this way without spending a dime.
Philanthropy - Decent enough but not my first choice.
Cultural Diplomacy - Okay.
Aesthetics - THE policy of the tree other than the opener imo, you can rack up a massive alliance bonus at a key part of the game, and then other players get weaker influence for the rest of the game. I love the combination of immediate bonus and permanent bonus that really makes some policies work.
Trade Pact - Provides a decent amount of hammers.
Scholasticism - I don't know if its a bug but this policy provides so little science its completely laughable.
Finisher - Considering there is no reason a CS shouldn't be your friend with the opener, it can provide a great amount of happiness.
Knowledge - This is my go to tree after commerce. Science is never a bad thing, and you get a LOT of science from this tree.
Opener - A really nice opener but not overpowered like some of the previous versions.
Scientific Revolution - I mentioned before that I don't like the build buildings mechanic, but I will say that adding it on balances this policy with some of the other ones in the tree. I just wish it was a different mechanic.
Humanism - I find its a weaker happy policy than many of the others, its hard to put my finger on why though. I think it may be that the rest of the tree is just so good.
Sovereignty - Aptly named, for it is the king of the tree. A massive 20% bonus to science is just insanely good especially combined with monarchy.
Free Thought - Solid policy, and combined with patent law creates super villages.
Secularism - I have found this one surprisingly good. Late game I tend to have a lot of specialists so the science racks up.
Finisher - One of the better ones.
Order
Opener - Decent.
Planned Economy - I feel like this one comes along a little late for its bonus to be really useful. If I need a factory fast i'll buy it.
Socialism - Can save a builder an okay amount of money, but I would always push commerce first.
Labor Unions - One of the best policies in the tree.
Communism - Probably the best policy in this tree. It lets an industrial civ become strong in science as well.
United Front - The spy bonuses alone wouldn't sell it, but getting 10 new hammers to a city just for building the spy buildings I think sells it.
Finisher - Decent enough.
Freedom - This tree has become an odd grab bag among trees, but the bag is pretty good.
Opener - I consider the opener the payment in order to access this tree. Combat bonuses are not what I'm looking for when I go freedom.
Free Speech - One of the critical policies for a culture victory, and another way to make villages godly.
Democracy - This one is just flat out awesome.
Universal Suffrage - When I first played this version, I thought this policy would be completely overpowered. However, I have found that at this point in the game villages have generally become very good. Also, the growth bonus is late in the game and doesn't have a huge impact.
Free Trade - Very weak mainly because its almost impossible for the AI to have enough cash to make research pacts. Without that, the gold bonus to open trade just isn't enough.
Immigration - Its okay.
Finisher - I don't necessarily understand exactly how this works. If it works just like I think it does, its simply overpowered. with the national wonders you should have at this point, you get these bonuses:
1) National Epic - Another +25% culture and GP bump.
2) Heroic Epic - Do you get another 20% from morale?
3) National Treasury - Another 20% + 10 gold to the money city.
4) National College - Another 25% science bonus to to the science city.
5) Circus Maximus - Another 5 happy.
6) Foundary - Another 8 prod + 25% prod in main city.
Now there are more these are just the ones I generally always get. That is a LOT of bonus.
Nationalism - Like honor I'm finding ways to use this tree, but its main is that it competes with freedom, and I think freedom is just a better tree.
Opener - A little on the weak side. The happy is nice but not too strong, and I don't need more GGs, I get plenty of those in the game.
Police State - Gives me a reason to build police stations and constabules, and has nice synergy with United Front.
Militarism - If i'm going war I'm spending a lot of gold in maintenance, so this generally gives good returns.
Privileged Elite - A great happiness valve that can be adjusted as needed, and the courthouse bonus is that little something extra.
Fascism - I don't have enough experience with this policy yet.
Conscription - Its interesting that in one of the "war" trees this is the only policy that actually helps you fight better. The healing is useful.
Finisher - +30 XP, awesome!
One thing I would like to consider for this tree, would it be possible to have a policy that halves rebellion time. I'm tired of invading a place and waiting 15 turns for the populace to quiet down.
Commerce - Right this is my favorite tree overall. I use the policies consistently in most games I play.
Opener - Very nice. The 15% bonus gives a lot of gold, and great merchants with faith is solid.
Mercantilism - All of the benefits here have been tried in other forms with varying levels of success. I find that the bonuses together finally feels right.
Guilds - I would say the weakest of the commerce policies but still a good one and has good synergy with the faith buying the opener allows.
Protectionism - Just solid.
Merchant Navy - The navy bonus has always been either too weak or too deep in the tree. Now combined with the naval building bonus this one is a great policy for coastal empires.
Patent Law - After Mercantilism, this is the policy that provides the actual raw gold in my games.
Liberty - This has become my default early game tree.
Opener - By far the lamest opener currently. It has its use, but there is nothing interesting about it at all.
Meritocracy - This one has a great balance of use. The gold/happiness bump is great for early game, the culture aspect kicks in a bit later. I find this is the policy I will dip into liberty for just to ensure my large empire doesn't get bogged on culture.
In fact, in some ways I feel this policy is a requirement if I'm going a large empire and I want to have any amount of policies, but that could be a perception I don't know how much actually mechanical impact the policy has.
Citizenship - A good bonus all around.
Collective Rule - Ironically I find this policy isn't that useful to me anymore, when it used to be the reason to go liberty. With the version's current money, I generally can buy my own settlers now, I almost never make them. And meritocracy can get me the money I need to buy one plus all of its other benefits. So I sometimes use it for the third city but its not as critical.
Representation - Probably one of the best happy policies in the game right now.
Republic - The prod bonus is just okay, but getting free walls in every city is nice...its still near the bottom of the list but I don't consider it a waste.
Finisher - Right now I think its one of the best finishers part for its strength and part for the earlyness that I can get it. The +2 prod for every specialist is huge late game when my growth starts to taper off and early game it makes an engineer more powerful than a mined hill with iron working, so I can for great engineers with 0 penalty.
Tradition -
Opener - This actually racks a lot of culture especially early game. A well manged tall empire can often get a lot of happiness so it can generate a sizable portion of your culture.
Ceremonial Rites - Its okay, but I really don't like the build buildings mechanic, so its not nearly as interesting as other policies.
Monarchy - This one is a great one, and sometimes worth a dip into the tradition pool just to pick up. Again all of the bonuses individually wouldn't be worth it, but packaged together it makes it work.
Landed Elite - Another decent one especially if gotten early. Lower on the list than many but still useful.
Oligarchy - It has its uses, but I think its a very boring policy. Also, the 50% bonus to ranged attack has a big swinging effect on city strength.
Aristocracy - wonder bonuses are always useful, and that extra little culture bonus just sweetens the pot.
Finisher - Solid finisher. honestly the 200% border speed is something I miss when going liberty orders.
Honor - I've been trying it out more lately, and its come a long way in that a peacenick like me considers using it from time to time. I will say that I think honor's biggest issue is it doesn't have effective happy control for conquest like nationalism. If I'm conquering I have an expensive army and happiness problems. Professional Army helps the expense, but military caste doesn't really help the happy that much.
Opener - Because barbs are so rampant now with the changes, the opener is really good, and its such a nice carrot for peacenicks to go honor. Hey I get a little better at fighting barbs, and I can make a ton of culture.
Military Tradition - Mediocre but okay.
Military Caste - Mediocre but okay.
Professional Army - Imo, THE reason to take honor. The upgrade reduction is great, and the gold pillaging is wonderful. When I take honor (again as a peacenick), its mainly to pick this one up. That way when I'm fighting barbs I'm getting culture and money...and suddenly going to war isn't so bad.
Warrior Code - One of the weakest policies in the game imo. I feel like this one needs to be packaged with another bonus.
Discipline - The most pure military policy, its solid at making your army stronger.
Finisher - Its an okay finisher, but I like that the tree as a whole offers a lot of cultural avenues. The ability to play a conqueror going for a culture victory has appeal and this tree tries to offer that.
Piety - For me, the best use of piety has been to jumpstart a religion. I can still get religion benefits without focusing on the infrastructure. Overall though I would still say its a weak tree.
Opener - Basically gives you a pantheon which is solid.
Inspiration - Any avenue to gain culture when you are going for a culture victory is useful but for anything else its kind of mediocre.
Unity - Generally this nets me 2 GAs (one immediate and one extra happy one). I don't know the overall benefit but I would say its pretty useful.
Tolerance - An okay happy policy.
Charity - Gives more use to the religious buildings, I wish it just had a little bit more to it.
Devotion - This combined with the opener provides the springboard to get my religion up and running. So for that its very useful, otherwise its mediocre.
Finisher - If it effect great person buying it would be useful. Else its far and away the weakest finisher in the game.
Patronage
Opener - The opener is actually so good that it tempts me to go down this tree when I normally would not. The opener + promise to protect nets you an automatic CS friend. It is possible to get friendships with all CS this way without spending a dime.
Philanthropy - Decent enough but not my first choice.
Cultural Diplomacy - Okay.
Aesthetics - THE policy of the tree other than the opener imo, you can rack up a massive alliance bonus at a key part of the game, and then other players get weaker influence for the rest of the game. I love the combination of immediate bonus and permanent bonus that really makes some policies work.
Trade Pact - Provides a decent amount of hammers.
Scholasticism - I don't know if its a bug but this policy provides so little science its completely laughable.
Finisher - Considering there is no reason a CS shouldn't be your friend with the opener, it can provide a great amount of happiness.
Knowledge - This is my go to tree after commerce. Science is never a bad thing, and you get a LOT of science from this tree.
Opener - A really nice opener but not overpowered like some of the previous versions.
Scientific Revolution - I mentioned before that I don't like the build buildings mechanic, but I will say that adding it on balances this policy with some of the other ones in the tree. I just wish it was a different mechanic.
Humanism - I find its a weaker happy policy than many of the others, its hard to put my finger on why though. I think it may be that the rest of the tree is just so good.
Sovereignty - Aptly named, for it is the king of the tree. A massive 20% bonus to science is just insanely good especially combined with monarchy.
Free Thought - Solid policy, and combined with patent law creates super villages.
Secularism - I have found this one surprisingly good. Late game I tend to have a lot of specialists so the science racks up.
Finisher - One of the better ones.
Order
Opener - Decent.
Planned Economy - I feel like this one comes along a little late for its bonus to be really useful. If I need a factory fast i'll buy it.
Socialism - Can save a builder an okay amount of money, but I would always push commerce first.
Labor Unions - One of the best policies in the tree.
Communism - Probably the best policy in this tree. It lets an industrial civ become strong in science as well.
United Front - The spy bonuses alone wouldn't sell it, but getting 10 new hammers to a city just for building the spy buildings I think sells it.
Finisher - Decent enough.
Freedom - This tree has become an odd grab bag among trees, but the bag is pretty good.
Opener - I consider the opener the payment in order to access this tree. Combat bonuses are not what I'm looking for when I go freedom.
Free Speech - One of the critical policies for a culture victory, and another way to make villages godly.
Democracy - This one is just flat out awesome.
Universal Suffrage - When I first played this version, I thought this policy would be completely overpowered. However, I have found that at this point in the game villages have generally become very good. Also, the growth bonus is late in the game and doesn't have a huge impact.
Free Trade - Very weak mainly because its almost impossible for the AI to have enough cash to make research pacts. Without that, the gold bonus to open trade just isn't enough.
Immigration - Its okay.
Finisher - I don't necessarily understand exactly how this works. If it works just like I think it does, its simply overpowered. with the national wonders you should have at this point, you get these bonuses:
1) National Epic - Another +25% culture and GP bump.
2) Heroic Epic - Do you get another 20% from morale?
3) National Treasury - Another 20% + 10 gold to the money city.
4) National College - Another 25% science bonus to to the science city.
5) Circus Maximus - Another 5 happy.
6) Foundary - Another 8 prod + 25% prod in main city.
Now there are more these are just the ones I generally always get. That is a LOT of bonus.
Nationalism - Like honor I'm finding ways to use this tree, but its main is that it competes with freedom, and I think freedom is just a better tree.
Opener - A little on the weak side. The happy is nice but not too strong, and I don't need more GGs, I get plenty of those in the game.
Police State - Gives me a reason to build police stations and constabules, and has nice synergy with United Front.
Militarism - If i'm going war I'm spending a lot of gold in maintenance, so this generally gives good returns.
Privileged Elite - A great happiness valve that can be adjusted as needed, and the courthouse bonus is that little something extra.
Fascism - I don't have enough experience with this policy yet.
Conscription - Its interesting that in one of the "war" trees this is the only policy that actually helps you fight better. The healing is useful.
Finisher - +30 XP, awesome!
One thing I would like to consider for this tree, would it be possible to have a policy that halves rebellion time. I'm tired of invading a place and waiting 15 turns for the populace to quiet down.
Ahriman
Tyrant
My main thoughts:
Tradition and Liberty are really solid, powerful trees - maybe some policies are even too powerful (Meritocracy, Liberty Finisher). Honor and Piety feel pretty weak by comparison.
Commerce is also solid.
Patronage I think is now a bit weak. Gold gifts aren't very efficient anymore, and Patronage policies give one significant effect each while some other tree policies give 2 significant effects or 1 significant effect and 2 modest ones (eg Mercantilism).
Order seems ok.
Knowledge is a bit weak.
Sovereignty still makes no sense and is arguably the weakest policy in the entire game. Compare it to say the Liberty finisher - and finishers should be weaker than a normal full pick.
Sovereignty makes sense in a tree about the "Enlightenment" or maybe "Rationalism". As a name it doesn't really make any sense in a tree called "Knowledge". What does developing Westphalian states and ideas of sovereignty have to do with knowledge generation?
I still think that specialist happiness makes absolutely no sense in Power. And I find Power a bit weak for an industrial era tree.
Freedom is ok.
*edit*
Tradition and Liberty are really solid, powerful trees - maybe some policies are even too powerful (Meritocracy, Liberty Finisher). Honor and Piety feel pretty weak by comparison.
Commerce is also solid.
Patronage I think is now a bit weak. Gold gifts aren't very efficient anymore, and Patronage policies give one significant effect each while some other tree policies give 2 significant effects or 1 significant effect and 2 modest ones (eg Mercantilism).
Order seems ok.
Knowledge is a bit weak.
Sovereignty still makes no sense and is arguably the weakest policy in the entire game. Compare it to say the Liberty finisher - and finishers should be weaker than a normal full pick.
Sovereignty makes sense in a tree about the "Enlightenment" or maybe "Rationalism". As a name it doesn't really make any sense in a tree called "Knowledge". What does developing Westphalian states and ideas of sovereignty have to do with knowledge generation?
I still think that specialist happiness makes absolutely no sense in Power. And I find Power a bit weak for an industrial era tree.
Freedom is ok.
*edit*
In light of the above, maybe I don't have the latest version installed? [My comment referred to the +1 free great scientist.]
Here's what you actually get from this, in case you are wondering about the mechanics:
Treasury, +25% and +2
, College, Oxford, +25%, +2
Foundry, Hero Epic +25%, +2
. Hermitage, Nat Epic +25%, +2
(when implemented by either the patch or any updates to wonders, presumably +25%, +2
on Holy Palace).Circus Max +3
It doesn't 2x everything.
It's still a lot of bonus though.
(Also, good run through of the policies as current).
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Thank you for the helpful analysis! I'll think over the commentary presented in this thread to figure out what can be improved.
How could we enhance the Warrior Code policy? The goldenage from a Great General was a big reason why I got it in the past. What if we return Great Generals and Admirals to the same duration golden age as other great people? Right now they give 3 turns, compared to the 8-turn duration of other GP.
I checked the Scholasticism policy, and unfortunately it's just a boolean flag (MinorScienceAllies true/false) not a percentage (like ScienceFromAllies = 50%). This means we can't change the effect directly, but we could add some other effect to the policy.
I think this would be easy to do. It would certainly help speed up conquest in the late game. Why don't we add it to the Fascism policy?
Yes, this sounds like it's the case.
What could we rename the Sovereignty policy to?
How could we enhance the Warrior Code policy? The goldenage from a Great General was a big reason why I got it in the past. What if we return Great Generals and Admirals to the same duration golden age as other great people? Right now they give 3 turns, compared to the 8-turn duration of other GP.
I checked the Scholasticism policy, and unfortunately it's just a boolean flag (MinorScienceAllies true/false) not a percentage (like ScienceFromAllies = 50%). This means we can't change the effect directly, but we could add some other effect to the policy.
I think this would be easy to do. It would certainly help speed up conquest in the late game. Why don't we add it to the Fascism policy?
Yes, this sounds like it's the case.
What could we rename the Sovereignty policy to?
I wouldn't change the fundamentals of the GG just to fix one policy. A more scalpel solution is just to add something to the current policy.
Is it possible to increase the combat effectiveness of the GG with this policy? Or something where GGs get the medic promotion or some other benefit?
How about Rationalism?
Dunkah
Emperor
Is it possible to give great generals promotions? Perhaps a free great general with some sort of promotion to increase his fighting ability bonus.
Ahriman
Tyrant
That would detract from China's UA.
We can always adjust China if needbe, if the idea makes sense to do in general lets not let one Civ stop it.
mitsho
Deity
I'd rather put more yields to citadels (and forts!) to the Warrior Code Policy. Citadels would then be a go-to for a more peaceful use of the policy. Science and Culture can be quite powerful at that stage. (Maybe need to change the name of the policy though)
It's not possible to make enemy units lose more health besides citadels with a policy, right. Too bad.
It's not possible to make enemy units lose more health besides citadels with a policy, right. Too bad.
I like the idea, can put that GG to more peaceful uses.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I don't think it does make sense in general to boost GGs.
A stated goal for the Honor design is to avoid strength boosts, because these can make combat too easy, and because most strength boosts end up favoring the human player (certainly boosting GGs would be one of these).
I wouldn't want to boost citadel damage either, because the AI is pretty bad at dealing with citadels.
mitsho
Deity
So, I up this thread since we've been discussing the Liberty finisher in a Bug Report thread and all over the place. Let's hope that the next version fixes it as promised. 
But I want to ask what the feelings are on the Order Policy that speeds the production of production buildings? (planned economy I think) I feel that one is not worth it since in a tall game, I will build those buildings quickly enough anyways and in a wide game, I normally have other pressing policies to chose, f.e. happiness ones. Am I alone in that?
Looking at Order, I feel it could use a slight culture boost that other trees have? +1 :C5culture: on production buildings (work ethics!)?
But I want to ask what the feelings are on the Order Policy that speeds the production of production buildings? (planned economy I think) I feel that one is not worth it since in a tall game, I will build those buildings quickly enough anyways and in a wide game, I normally have other pressing policies to chose, f.e. happiness ones. Am I alone in that?
Looking at Order, I feel it could use a slight culture boost that other trees have? +1 :C5culture: on production buildings (work ethics!)?
