[RD] Gender is a social construct.

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Doesn't matter whether you're Buddhist, the point is that their view is a more accurate view of reality than some fundamental unchanging self

OK I studied Buddhism. In fact I'm a fan of Nanavira Thera. Personally I was Eastern Orthodox but then became a Shaivist. OK, that's just me and my personal beliefs.

But let's go on forward a bit on this: I'm not a Buddhist, but what you're saying is a common misconception. Fire up the Sanskrit, Pali Cannon, or take the Mahayana schools for granted, if you take Buddhism seriously and want to study it.

What they're saying is that the "self", the body, is impermanent and unreal. But what they're saying, is that there's a fundamental, non-material, "spiritual" substracte called citta, or nous, which leads to a fundamental unchanging core called "atman", that is the real "I" and also the only real noetic substrate undergirding man.

"But Buddha posited a doctrine of anatta", anatta gets misused esp. by materialists. What the Buddha said was that you cannot define this immaterial nature by words and concepts, it is apophatic. Not that it does not exist, it is real and exists but is apophatic. So that's what the Buddhist doctrine says in fact.
 
But genitalia [...is] literally inherited from parents.
No it isn't, that is absurd.
My disagreeing with your opinion does not mean I am ignorant.
No, it doesn't. But when you blatantly misrepresent what trans people actually believe, I can only assume ignorance or malice and I am choosing to assume ignorance.

If I took on the label of non-binary myself, would you better receive my opinions?
No, because I think your opinions are bad on their own merits and not because of your identity.

As far as hormons [sic] and surgery. I don't believe you would know how you'd feel with such before doing so. And the idea of "trans" is a environmental belief that colors the experience as well. Whether you get your hormones chemically changed or surgery on your body is just a more elaborate way of concerning yourself with pronouns. All a way so you'll be treated as your preferred gender as part of gender norms.
I don't want hormones so that I am treated differently by others. Maybe other trans people want this, I am not sure. I want hormones because other people I know in a similar situation to me have taken hormones and it has made them significantly happier.

Regardless do you admit this is saying there is a male and female brain? That there is something inherently gendered built into at least some peoples brains.
No, I don't admit that. I don't care if people have gendered brains or not. The reason why I am trans makes no difference to me and it would not change how I treat others.

I try to use gender neutral pronouns like xe anyway for everyone. It's noncommittal regarding the topic of gender. If someone wants to get super picky about particular pronouns and a simple nonspecific one won't do, I have a problem with that.
I am skimming your post because this signals to me that you have such a moral framework that is so utterly abhorrent and alien to me that I do not think we are likely to ever reach an understanding. I think that we have a social obligation to each other to respect others' identities, including their names and pronouns. You clearly do not, because of your insistence on referring to everyone by pronouns they might not want you to use for them. This is no better than meeting someone, deciding their name doesn't fit them and referring to them as something else. It is just as insulting.

There is enough people who think somewhat like me that they have a label I've never heard of for it?
Yes, your opinion is uncommon but common enough that almost every trans person has encountered it at least once. They don't usually take it as far as you but its in the same ballpark.

Projects?
You wish to abolish gender, no? That's a project. The plural was a typo.

My issue is with gender norms. Trans by definition enforces gender norms. When it's not eclipsing the topic altogether. Like kinda hard to talk about having non-separated sports when the discussion is all about whether A person fits in X box or Y box as per separate teams.
Do you think that getting rid of trans people will bring you any closer to gender neutral sports and bathrooms? It won't, I assure you.

Like I know a trans
This is a hurtful and offensive thing to call a trans person, but I guess you don't care about that. Is it acceptable under your moral framework to call people slurs if they are gender neutral slurs?

It wasn't a particularly gendered name in the first place.
So?

Lets say you had a male friend who decide to change their name from John to Jessica. Would that offend you? Why can't they change their name?

I had a friend who changed his name from one masculine name to another, not because he was trans but because he wanted a new name. Why should I care? Why should you care?

Let's say you do have a penis but like skirts, frills, pink, gossip (insert whatever female gender norm) but you identify as "male" (or the other way around) You'd get all the same flack that someone who identfies as "trans" gets, without the protective status, so even more.

You vastly overestimate how much protective status being trans gets.

So that person with a penis who wants the female gender norm stuff but not the pronouns hormones or surgery is just a freak. A worthless rebel to the gender norms. That "gender" that both the trans community and the bigots seem to agree exists.

An overwhelming majority of trans people do not believe this and accept gender non-conforming cis people with open arms. If someone wants all the female gender norm stuff but wants to use he/him pronouns and not take hormones the overwhelming majority of trans people would accept that. This is a complete strawman and if you had asked "do you accept people who are like this?" without all the needless hostility you would have gotten this answer a lot sooner.
 
We're all subject to cause and effect.

You're as much as a doll as an AI program just w different wiring (as is everyone). To think otherwise is just a defense mechanism based on religion (superstition/philosophy). Your thoughts process is like the rain falling or wind blowing.

This hardcore materialism is self-refuting, self-contradicting, useless to the core. Again, there are plenty of well constructed, good, brief and long refutations. In a fully deterministic universe, you would have no intelligence because your mind would not be able to fire up your intentionality. And again, by causality, you're ignoring Aristotle who posited a formal and other causes, instead of a simplified causality that just takes the material sequence of events for granted.
 
At the risk of sounding excessively reactionary, but let me give you first these spoilers: a) I'm not an American b) I'm not a liberal, but decidedly anti-liberal c) I'm against the Enlightenment.

This would be like me saying "I am not a Communist but I think that workers should seize the means of production and establish a dictatorship of the proletariat". b) and c) are textbook reactionary beliefs.
 
What they're saying is that the "self", the body, is impermanent and unreal. But what they're saying, is that there's a fundamental, non-material, "spiritual" substracte called citta, or nous, which leads to a fundamental unchanging core called "atman", that is the real "I" and also the only real noetic substrate undergirding man.
Atman is Hindu.

Iirc (if I've read correctly anyway) when someone directly asked if Buddha if the self exists or it doesn't he remained silent. But he often did that so people wouldn't get caught up in the wrong things that wouldn't lead in any useful direction.

But anyway I wasn't there and like any religion things will get translated and re:translated but it's pretty accepted that he gave a talk on the five aggregates not equating to self (and gender identity would certainly fall into that realm)

In a fully deterministic universe, you would have no intelligence because your mind would not be able to fire up your intentionality
I don't "fire up" my intentionality. I can't help myself (unless I'm in deep sleep)

You think you are choosing your thoughts?

Already people watching your brain in an mri can predict simple choices you "decide" to make before you think you've made them
 
I don't think the modern era is sustainable in more ways than one.

Downside is I expect the natural state is more autocracy. It's good to be king.

For those of you looking forward to things falling apart I doubt you'll get what you want. I'll enjoy the irony myself in my mountain bunker.
 
Atman is Hindu.

Iirc (if I've read correctly anyway) when someone directly asked if Buddha if the self exists or it doesn't he remained silent. But he often did that so people wouldn't get caught up in the wrong things that wouldn't lead in any useful direction.

But anyway I wasn't there and like any religion things will get translated and re:translated but it's pretty accepted that he gave a talk on the five aggregates not equating to self (and gender identity would certainly fall into that realm)


Again, I'll repeat what I said:

"But Buddha posited a doctrine of anatta", anatta gets misused esp. by materialists. What the Buddha said was that you cannot define this immaterial nature by words and concepts, it is apophatic. Not that it does not exist, it is real and exists but is apophatic. So that's what the Buddhist doctrine says in fact.
 
"This would be like me saying "I am not a Communist but I think that workers should seize the means of production and establish a dictatorship of the proletariat". b) and c) are textbook reactionary beliefs."

Communism is dead. I don't care about it. Most of the non-Western world in fact today also rejects it squarely.

"
I don't "fire up" my intentionality. I can't help myself (unless I'm in deep sleep)

You think you are choosing your thoughts?

Already people watching your brain in an mri can predict simple choices you "decide" to make before you think you've made them"

Again, read on Brentano or Aristotle's four causes. That's a gross simplification of things.

"You reject material reality? Cringe. Couldn't be me, I am not a postmodernist like yourself."

No, that's a total strawman. You're putting things in my mouth.

I think Marxism is dumb, anyway. But I do not deny material reality, but Marxists are reductionists who think in exclusively material terms, that's why they're dumb.
 
Ethnically he was white. Illegitimate, his mother married a Maori Ngai Tahu iwi. His stepfather adopted him.

You get that is different from some random white person living in the the United States moving to New Zealand and identifying as Maori right? Do you get how insulting it is to compare those two situations?

One of my D&D players today is white Maori. Passes as white, Mother is Maori and he is registered Ngai Tahu and qualifies for tribal benefits as well.

Does he appreciate being referred to as that? I know Maori people who would very much find being referred to as "white Maori" very offensive.
 
I don't think the modern era is sustainable in more ways than one.

Downside is I expect the natural state is more autocracy. It's good to be king.

For those of you looking forward to things falling apart I doubt you'll get what you want. I'll enjoy the irony myself in my mountain bunker.
I don't really get the dichotomy between natural and unnatural.

Even if society collapsed people would use whatever technology and terraforming they could. That's part of what it is to be human.

Again, I'll repeat what I said:

"But Buddha posited a doctrine of anatta", anatta gets misused esp. by materialists. What the Buddha said was that you cannot define this immaterial nature by words and concepts, it is apophatic. Not that it does not exist, it is real and exists but is apophatic. So that's what the Buddhist doctrine says in fact.
So he couldn't define the non-self doctrine so you choose to believe it means he does believe in a separate self.
 
I don't really get the dichotomy between natural and unnatural.

Even if society collapsed people would use whatever technology and terraforming they could. That's part of what it is to be human.


So he couldn't define the non-self doctrine so you choose to believe it means he does believe in a separate self.

Totally wrong on the Buddha. He said the citta, the nous, is our only real nature but thta is apophatic, it cannot be defined by means of analogy with material concepts.

The EO have similar concepts. God is apophatic, God's energeia or activities are apophatic. In fact, just because you cannot define a thing, esp in relation to what is visible to you, does not mean it doesn't exist. Quantum physics is everyday proof of this.
 
Communism is dead. I don't care about it. Most of the non-Western world in fact today also rejects it squarely.

Damn, I better tell the populations of China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea and the extremely large Communist Nepalese and Indian parties that they aren't actually Communist because MPorciusCatoCivver said that most of the non-Western world rejects Communism.

No, that's a total strawman. You're putting things in my mouth.

I think Marxism is dumb, anyway. But I do not deny material reality, but Marxists are reductionists who think in exclusively material terms, that's why they're dumb.

So you think there's some spiritual or religious or supernatural entity that made you a man as opposed to a woman or an enby? A spooky gender ghost made you that way?
 
You get that is different from some random white person living in the the United States moving to New Zealand and identifying as Maori right? Do you get how insulting it is to compare those two situations?



Does he appreciate being referred to as that? I know Maori people who would very much find being referred to as "white Maori" very offensive.

He wouldn't be offended if I said it to him he might if someone else did I'm not 100% sure. He would get offended if you called him a plastic Maori or worse term. He's Ngai Tahu some north island iwi look down on them. Mutual friend of ours is a white Tongan born to Tongan parents (recessive gene).

I'm more pointing out that transracial concept already exists here not by that term though. CFC doesn't really believe me when I tell them NZs more liberal lol. I find Australia fairly reactionary (I game with them a lot online) they're try hard Americans.

If gender is a social construct you can argue race. I don't think the OP was doing it in good faith though.

CFC has a very loud American culture war we're probably 30 odd years ahead of USA and Australia socially. Both countries are dealing with stuff we did 70's-90's.
 
"So you think there's some spiritual or religious or supernatural entity that made you a man as opposed to a woman or an enby? A spooky gender ghost made you that way?"

I would rather quote a very good academic pro life Ed Feser on this:


"
Materialists sometimes argue that the mind is bound to succumb to naturalistic explanation, because everything else has. How could it be the only hold-out? As I have argued in several places (most recently and at greatest length in The Last Superstition), far from being the knock-out blow some materialists think it, this argument actually shows how very shallow and historically ill-informed much materialist thinking is. For, whether explicitly or implicitly, materialism is committed to the mechanistic conception of matter inherited from early modern thinkers like Galileo, Descartes, Hobbes, Boyle, and Locke, where the core of this conception – or the only part of it that has survived over the centuries, anyway – is the idea that neither goal-directedness or final causality, nor sensory qualities like color, odor, taste, sound, and the like as we experience them, exist in the objective material world, but only in the mind of the perceiver. Matter, that is to say, was simply defined in such a way that (a) mental properties were taken to be paradigmatically non-material, and (b) certain features that common sense and the Scholastic tradition regarded as inherent to matter were re-defined as mental. This both facilitated the giving of “naturalistic explanations” – since whatever wouldn’t fit the naturalistic-cum- mechanistic explanatory model was simply defined away as a mere mental projection in the first place, not part of the material world at all – but also guaranteed that the mind would be uniquely resistant to the same sort of explanatory procedure. For the mind was made the rug under which everything that wouldn’t fit the naturalistic model could be swept. By definition, as it were, the same “sweeping” strategy cannot possibly be applied to the mind itself.

Victor Reppert kindly draws his readers’ attention to a passage in my book Philosophy of Mind where I made this point. But it is hardly original with me. Reppert also cites a passage from Richard Swinburne’s The Evolution of the Soul which makes the same point. Thomas Nagel’s famous article “What is it like to be a bat?” makes it too. (Most readers of this article wrongly focus on the bat example itself, quibbling over whether analogies with human experience coupled with neuroscientific knowledge might allow us to infer what it is like to be one. But in doing so they miss Nagel’s deeper and more devastating point that it is the “objectivist” way in which contemporary philosophers tend to conceive of matter that makes a naturalistic explanation of mind – not just the conscious experiences of bats, but any “subjective” conscious mental state – impossible in principle.)

Indeed, the point is as old as modern philosophy itself. It was central to the thinking of the Cambridge Platonist Ralph Cudworth (1617-1689) and the Cartesian Nicolas Malebranche (1638-1715), both of whom emphasized that the “mechanical philosophy” necessarily entails dualism. It is also at least implicit in Descartes and Locke. If you are going to insist that matter is comprised only of colorless, odorless, tasteless, soundless particles devoid of any inherent meaning or goal-directedness, then of course qualia and intentionality are going to have to count as immaterial, and color, odor, taste, sound, etc. understood as objective features of nature would simply have to be re-defined (in terms of patterns of motion in particles, or whatever). Hence the reason so few modern philosophers, until very recently, followed Hobbes in his materialism, is not because they were afraid to follow out the implications of modern science, but rather precisely because they did follow out its implications (that is, insofar as modern science tends to take a “mechanical” conception of matter for granted). And the reason so many recent philosophers have followed Hobbes is, I would suggest, that they have forgotten the history of their subject and not thought carefully about the conception of matter they are implicitly committed to. When a contemporary philosopher of mind with naturalistic sympathies does think carefully about this conception, he tends either to come to doubt that naturalistic models of the mind really can succeed (as e.g. Fodor, McGinn, and Levine do in their various ways), or to suggest that it is only by developing some radically new conception of matter that naturalism can be defended (as e.g. Nagel and Galen Strawson do in different ways), or to adopt some “naturalistic” form of dualism (as e.g. Chalmers does explicitly and Searle does implicitly, despite his best efforts to avoid it.)

The upshot is that the materialist’s “everything else has been explained naturalistically” shtick is little more than a shell game. “Everything else” is “explained” only by hiding the recalcitrant features, like a pea, under the shell of the mind. The illusion only works precisely because there is a shell to hide things under, and thus requires dualism. To assume otherwise is like assuming that a shell game scam could successfully be carried out either by hiding, not only the peas, but also every shell under a shell (as reductionist forms of materialism effectively do insofar as they assume that the same strategy applied to explaining heat, color, sound, etc. – that is, carving off and “hiding” the subjective element and re-defining the phenomenon in mechanistic terms – can be applied to mental states themselves) or by getting rid of the shells entirely (as eliminative materialism effectively does). Not even the boldest sidewalk scammer would attempt such folly. For that you need an intellectual in the grip of a theory."



If you read Ed Feser enough, perhaps you 're going to concede that dialectical materialism is just plainly ********. But that's just me. It's laughable, like saying the moon is made of cheese because sometimes it looks yellow.
 
Damn, I better tell the populations of China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea and the extremely large Communist Nepalese and Indian parties that they aren't actually Communist because MPorciusCatoCivver said that most of the non-Western world rejects Communism.



So you think there's some spiritual or religious or supernatural entity that made you a man as opposed to a woman or an enby? A spooky gender ghost made you that way?

Modern Communism online seems heavily to be Mao Zedong try hard.

One of the D&D players is Communist he doesn't like Mao.
 
"Damn, I better tell the populations of China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea and the extremely large Communist Nepalese and Indian parties that they aren't actually Communist because MPorciusCatoCivver said that most of the non-Western world rejects Communism."

Hey Ninja, what happened to all these Commie blocks in Eastern Europe, Russia, Middle East and so on? What do you have? Laos, a total backwater. NK, a totally effed up semi-theocratic feudalism, and what lol Vietnam and China who have capitalistic economies? What happened to the other 9/10 communist countries?

ML is bound to fail because it's so full of contradictions they show up and blow up stuff in reality. Really.
 
"So you think there's some spiritual or religious or supernatural entity that made you a man as opposed to a woman or an enby? A spooky gender ghost made you that way?"

I would rather quote a very good academic pro life Ed Feser on this:


"
Materialists sometimes argue that the mind is bound to succumb to naturalistic explanation, because everything else has. How could it be the only hold-out? As I have argued in several places (most recently and at greatest length in The Last Superstition), far from being the knock-out blow some materialists think it, this argument actually shows how very shallow and historically ill-informed much materialist thinking is. For, whether explicitly or implicitly, materialism is committed to the mechanistic conception of matter inherited from early modern thinkers like Galileo, Descartes, Hobbes, Boyle, and Locke, where the core of this conception – or the only part of it that has survived over the centuries, anyway – is the idea that neither goal-directedness or final causality, nor sensory qualities like color, odor, taste, sound, and the like as we experience them, exist in the objective material world, but only in the mind of the perceiver. Matter, that is to say, was simply defined in such a way that (a) mental properties were taken to be paradigmatically non-material, and (b) certain features that common sense and the Scholastic tradition regarded as inherent to matter were re-defined as mental. This both facilitated the giving of “naturalistic explanations” – since whatever wouldn’t fit the naturalistic-cum- mechanistic explanatory model was simply defined away as a mere mental projection in the first place, not part of the material world at all – but also guaranteed that the mind would be uniquely resistant to the same sort of explanatory procedure. For the mind was made the rug under which everything that wouldn’t fit the naturalistic model could be swept. By definition, as it were, the same “sweeping” strategy cannot possibly be applied to the mind itself.

Victor Reppert kindly draws his readers’ attention to a passage in my book Philosophy of Mind where I made this point. But it is hardly original with me. Reppert also cites a passage from Richard Swinburne’s The Evolution of the Soul which makes the same point. Thomas Nagel’s famous article “What is it like to be a bat?” makes it too. (Most readers of this article wrongly focus on the bat example itself, quibbling over whether analogies with human experience coupled with neuroscientific knowledge might allow us to infer what it is like to be one. But in doing so they miss Nagel’s deeper and more devastating point that it is the “objectivist” way in which contemporary philosophers tend to conceive of matter that makes a naturalistic explanation of mind – not just the conscious experiences of bats, but any “subjective” conscious mental state – impossible in principle.)

Indeed, the point is as old as modern philosophy itself. It was central to the thinking of the Cambridge Platonist Ralph Cudworth (1617-1689) and the Cartesian Nicolas Malebranche (1638-1715), both of whom emphasized that the “mechanical philosophy” necessarily entails dualism. It is also at least implicit in Descartes and Locke. If you are going to insist that matter is comprised only of colorless, odorless, tasteless, soundless particles devoid of any inherent meaning or goal-directedness, then of course qualia and intentionality are going to have to count as immaterial, and color, odor, taste, sound, etc. understood as objective features of nature would simply have to be re-defined (in terms of patterns of motion in particles, or whatever). Hence the reason so few modern philosophers, until very recently, followed Hobbes in his materialism, is not because they were afraid to follow out the implications of modern science, but rather precisely because they did follow out its implications (that is, insofar as modern science tends to take a “mechanical” conception of matter for granted). And the reason so many recent philosophers have followed Hobbes is, I would suggest, that they have forgotten the history of their subject and not thought carefully about the conception of matter they are implicitly committed to. When a contemporary philosopher of mind with naturalistic sympathies does think carefully about this conception, he tends either to come to doubt that naturalistic models of the mind really can succeed (as e.g. Fodor, McGinn, and Levine do in their various ways), or to suggest that it is only by developing some radically new conception of matter that naturalism can be defended (as e.g. Nagel and Galen Strawson do in different ways), or to adopt some “naturalistic” form of dualism (as e.g. Chalmers does explicitly and Searle does implicitly, despite his best efforts to avoid it.)

The upshot is that the materialist’s “everything else has been explained naturalistically” shtick is little more than a shell game. “Everything else” is “explained” only by hiding the recalcitrant features, like a pea, under the shell of the mind. The illusion only works precisely because there is a shell to hide things under, and thus requires dualism. To assume otherwise is like assuming that a shell game scam could successfully be carried out either by hiding, not only the peas, but also every shell under a shell (as reductionist forms of materialism effectively do insofar as they assume that the same strategy applied to explaining heat, color, sound, etc. – that is, carving off and “hiding” the subjective element and re-defining the phenomenon in mechanistic terms – can be applied to mental states themselves) or by getting rid of the shells entirely (as eliminative materialism effectively does). Not even the boldest sidewalk scammer would attempt such folly. For that you need an intellectual in the grip of a theory."



If you read Ed Feser enough, perhaps you 're going to concede that dialectical materialism is just plainly ******ed. But that's just me. It's laughable, like saying the moon is made of cheese because sometimes it looks yellow.

That’s a really cool wall of text but it doesn’t answer my question. Do you believe a supernatural entity gave you your gender?
 
I'm more pointing out that transracial concept already exists here not by that term though.

You get that the examples you provided are infinitely more nuanced than the “If you can trans your gender than why can’t you trans your race? Checkmate liberals.” bull that reactionaries like to give out yeah?
 
That’s a really cool wall of text but it doesn’t answer my question. Do you believe a supernatural entity gave you your gender?

That's a very dumb question.


Do you believe, in all honesty, that thoughts are clumps of matter that you can take, store and measure?

Do you believe, after General Relativity, that energy is some sort of clump of matter that you can store like sugar cubes?

Do you believe that numbers are entities that have a purely material origin and nature and can be honestly explained in purely naturalistic terms?

Do you believe that all that exists is only what you can hear and see? That whatever cannot be measured or explained in terms of a gross, sensory materialism is unreal? Because that's dumb, anyway, and even the physicalist Science of the last 150 years or so has already clearly refuted this without the need for any deeper philosophical discussion.
 
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