General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[Kyriakos]

Ok, given now we move to the part where the girl enters:

She wore the ornaments of pure yellow gold, which her great-great-grandmother had brought over from Saardam; the tempting stomacher of the olden time, and withal a provokingly short petticoat, to display the prettiest foot and ankle in the country round.

A question: is the stomacher (part of a corset) actually made of gold? I am confused by the sentence structure; it seems to be made of gold, and not just be golden-coloured. Maybe someone knows if that part could have a layer of gold?

Also, @Hrothbern : Was Saardam (apparently this is Zaandam) known for anything in particular? Irving places the story in 1800. So i suppose it would be up to the early 1700s, when (as i read) Peter the Great seems to have visited. Is it having sea access? A naval industry?
But if you just answer the corset question i'd be more than happy ^_^

 

[Hrothbern]

About the stomacher and the corset:
What I see is only solid gold as necklace, as headband and as "oorijzer". "oorijzer", ear iron, I cannot find a translation in English, but it is originally a tool to attach the hood, the women did wear to cover their hair, to their head.
What I do see is women wearing a band around their corset, that is embroiderd with gold threads.
The "ear iron" of silver or gold was very much a status symbol of wealth in the Netherlands of that period. (not so much in Amsterdam BTW, the extreme wealthy had different ways, like wearing the most expensive color of that time: black)

The economy of Zaandam, or Saenredam, around 1700 was mainly wood and shipbuilding. There were hundreds of windmills sawing wood to planks by the revolutionary new invention of the crankshaft. The waterways connecting every city and industrial zone in Holland as cheap high volume transport. Zaandam very well located for industry: wind for windmills, water for logistics and nearby peat areas for energy.
Zaandam, close to Amsterdam, was also a whale fishing centre at that time.

Not much I think to help, but that's about it.

 

[Kyriakos]

About the stomacher and the corset:
What I see is only solid gold as necklace, as headband and as "oorijzer". "oorijzer", ear iron, I cannot find a translation in English, but it is originally a tool to attach the hood, the women did wear to cover their hair, to their head.
What I do see is women wearing a band around their corset, that is embroiderd with gold threads.
The "ear iron" of silver or gold was very much a status symbol of wealth in the Netherlands of that period. (not so much in Amsterdam BTW, the extreme wealthy had different ways, like wearing the most expensive color of that time: black)

The economy of Zaandam, or Saenredam, around 1700 was mainly wood and shipbuilding. There were hundreds of windmills sawing wood to planks by the revolutionary new invention of the crankshaft. The waterways connecting every city and industrial zone in Holland as cheap high volume transport. Zaandam very well located for industry: wind for windmills, water for logistics and nearby peat areas for energy.
Zaandam, close to Amsterdam, was also a whale fishing centre at that time.

Not much I think to help, but that's about it.

View attachment 500049 View attachment 500050

Thank you, great info!

 

[Kyriakos]

Moving on to food... Ok, i spared you of the largest part, but i want to ask what "quarter" means in this case. I suspect (but am not sure) it means the (either literal) 1/4 of the food share (the rooster dag out in some earlier passage) or a generally large/important share in the food

In the porkers he saw carved out the future sleek side of bacon, and juicy relishing ham; not a turkey but he beheld daintily trussed up, with its gizzard under its wing, and, peradventure, a necklace of savory sausages; and even bright chanticleer himself lay sprawling on his back, in a side dish, with uplifted claws, as if craving that quarter which his chivalrous spirit disdained to ask while living.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In this instance, "quarter" means "mercy"... as in "giving the enemy no quarter."

The impression meant is that the dead rooster looks like it's asking for mercy from an opponent so just maybe it won't be killed.

Some men who get into duels or fights consider it dishonorable to ask for quarter (mercy) or to accept it if offered. The rooster is being compared to such men.

 

[Kyriakos]

Thanks! I vaguely recalled that meaning.
For some reason it wasn't in one of the online dictionaries i used, which was why i had to move to some other option at the time...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Thanks! I vaguely recalled that meaning.
For some reason it wasn't in one of the online dictionaries i used, which was why i had to move to some other option at the time...

You're welcome.

I've noticed that some online dictionaries don't include older definitions.

 

[Kyriakos]

This is very architectural, and i sadly know next to nothing about roofs (let alone dutch-styled ones )

When he entered the house, the conquest of his heart was complete. It was one of those spacious farmhouses, with high-ridged but lowly sloping roofs, built in the style handed down from the first Dutch settlers; the low projecting eaves forming a piazza along the front, capable of being closed up in bad weather.

While i am not sure i get the rest, i definitely don't understand what is meant by "closed up" regarding the piazza formed by the low projecting eaves? Is it some relatively flat surface surrounding the roof, created by a flat expansion of the eaves, which can then... be filled by snow or have some work done on it? Or did i just (very likely) not get any of what he means?

(also, if you are so kind, Meester @Hrothbern, have a look!!!)

Tbh i am not even sure i got the first part right, about the high-ridged but slow sloping. Is it just a roof that reaches very high, but still has a slow slope to its highest point? (seems very round-about way to say that the house is large, so maybe this isn't meant at all?).

 

[tjs282]

While i am not sure i get the rest, i definitely don't understand what is meant by "closed up" regarding the piazza formed by the low projecting eaves?

When the Earl of Bedford developed Covent Garden – the first private-venture public square built in London – his architect Inigo Jones surrounded it with arcades, in the Italian fashion. Talk about the piazza was connected in Londoners' minds not with the square as a whole, but with the arcades.

So it sounds like the author might actually be (mis-)using the word 'piazza' to mean 'arcade' or simply a 'porch'.

In northeastern North America, a porch is a small area, usually unenclosed, at the main-floor height and used as a sitting area or for the removal of working clothes so as not to get the home's interior dirty, when the entrance door is accessed via the porch. In the Southwestern United States, ranch-style homes often use a porch to provide shade for the entrance and southern wall of the residence.

So if this is an American (farm)house, then it's likely talking about that typical design where the roof projects far enough beyond the front wall to form a kind of (raised) porch/ verandah along the front wall, i.e. perhaps something like this?

And if this porch can itself be shuttered to keep out bad weather, that would make it able to be 'closed up', something like this.

Something else that might be applicable here is that in the US at the time of writing (1820), the word 'Dutch' was frequently (mis)applied to German things, e.g. the 'Pennsylvania Dutch' settlers were actually 'Deutsch'...

 

[Uberfrog]

This is very architectural, and i sadly know next to nothing about roofs (let alone dutch-styled ones )



While i am not sure i get the rest, i definitely don't understand what is meant by "closed up" regarding the piazza formed by the low projecting eaves? Is it some relatively flat surface surrounding the roof, created by a flat expansion of the eaves, which can then... be filled by snow or have some work done on it? Or did i just (very likely) not get any of what he means?

(also, if you are so kind, Meester @Hrothbern, have a look!!!)

Tbh i am not even sure i got the first part right, about the high-ridged but slow sloping. Is it just a roof that reaches very high, but still has a slow slope to its highest point? (seems very round-about way to say that the house is large, so maybe this isn't meant at all?).

I think he's talking about the traditional Dutch Colonial style of roof, with its distinctive high point sloping down low at the sides. "Piazza" here seems to be another word for porch (maybe that's common on the other side of the pond?). I assume the porch has shutters to allow it to be closed up in the winter.

Here's a Dutch style farmhouse in New York from around the right time period, which nicely shows the low sloping eaves forming the porch: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyckman_House)

 

[Kyriakos]

Thank you both!!! Very conclusive info.
Now if only i can find what that style of roof is called in greek (for a possible footnote)
I will likely just describe it as curving to the bottom, instead of going in a straight/mostly straight line.

 

[Hrothbern]

This is very architectural, and i sadly know next to nothing about roofs (let alone dutch-styled ones )



While i am not sure i get the rest, i definitely don't understand what is meant by "closed up" regarding the piazza formed by the low projecting eaves? Is it some relatively flat surface surrounding the roof, created by a flat expansion of the eaves, which can then... be filled by snow or have some work done on it? Or did i just (very likely) not get any of what he means?

(also, if you are so kind, Meester @Hrothbern, have a look!!!)

Tbh i am not even sure i got the first part right, about the high-ridged but slow sloping. Is it just a roof that reaches very high, but still has a slow slope to its highest point? (seems very round-about way to say that the house is large, so maybe this isn't meant at all?).

A high ridge means that the top of the roof is high, and the "lowly sloping" is I think not that the slope is low but that the roof continues to a low height.

Consider that the slope of the roof was dictated by the rain protection of the material used. If too horizontal it would leak, if too steep it could not be build stable.
Consider also that in the traditional building the cost of the roof per square meter were lower than the cost of the walls per square meter (also because triangle construction of thick wood beams is more stable)
The high volume from the high roof enabling to store lots of hay for the cows and other animals for the winter
So you get farms with lots of roof and walls not higher than a door on two of the sides of the building. The other two sides wooden planks or bricks.
Like the Saxon and Viking longhouses, the mead halls.
The oldest and cheapest material used for roofs was a 30-50 cm layer of reed, abundant everywhere. The disadvantage fire. The big advantage thermal isolation. Cows and other animals were warming the whole farm.
With lots of rivers here baked clay roof tiles always available and always the more expensive, but safer alternative.
In the Netherlands we did not use wood roof tiles as in many other countries (I guess because of the abundancy of reed), and slate roof tiles were only used for churches.
Non-farming rural houses in medieval times up to the industrial revolution in poor areas were often build of peat walls and reed roofs sloping down almost to the ground. Wood to expensive for the poor. Peat not strong enough to support higher walls.

Here some pictures.
The first one of a typical Frisian cow farm, with baked clay roof tiles, I guess build around 1900, for a big farmer, that shows nicely the the big high-ridged lowly sloping roof. Arond the farm the planted trees to break the wind velocity against damage and also to reduce the loss warmth in the farm in the winter from higher wind velocities. Not all trees there anymore on the picture.
The second one a reed roof farm of between 1600-1800.
The third one a drawing of the Rembrandt, of a reed roofed farm around 1640 in Diemen, the meanwhile by Amsterdam overgrown village where I live, an hour walk from the Amsterdam city centre where Rembrandt lived (Diemen is older than Amsterdam )
The fourth one a drawing in ink from Vincent van Gogh, ca 1880, of a "rich" peat house for the poor. The reed roof all the way down to the ground. The really poor had two walls of peat up to a meter thick tapering to half a meter near the roof. The smaller farms will have looked more like this ink drawing, but bigger and with higher roofs, more like the traditional saxon longhouses of around 800.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Awesome, and i think you are correct in the low sloping bit as well (makes far more sense that way)
Thanks for all the images/info!

 

[EnglishEdward]

She wore the ornaments of pure yellow gold, which her great-great-grandmother had brought over from Saardam; the tempting stomacher of the olden time, and withal a provokingly short petticoat, to display the prettiest foot and ankle in the country round.

A question: is the stomacher (part of a corset) actually made of gold? I am confused by the sentence structure;
it seems to be made of gold, and not just be golden-coloured. Maybe someone knows if that part could have a layer of gold?

The quotation is very much in the style of spoken, or perhaps emulating spoken, english written down.

The semi-colon ";" represents a pause long enough to separate the sentence into two distinct halves.

The only part of the first sentence that carries over to the second is the She wore

The made of pure gold description simply does not carry forward and only refers to the ornaments
that she wore that her great-great-grandmother had brought over from Saardam.

We have no idea from the second part of the sentence what colour the stomacher or the short petticoat were.

 

[Kyriakos]

Some questions about the farmhouse's treasures...

and a door left ajar gave him a peep into the best parlor, where the claw-footed chairs and dark mahogany tables shone like mirrors; andirons, with their accompanying shovel and tongs, glistened from their covert of asparagus tops; mock-oranges and conch-shells decorated the mantelpiece; strings of various-colored birds eggs were suspended above it; a great ostrich egg was hung from the centre of the room, and a corner cupboard, knowingly left open, displayed immense treasures of old silver and well-mended china.

Two questions:

1) did the andirons cause the light to reflect lively onto their ends, because those ends were shaped (as is common for such fireplace pieces) like the upper edge of an asparagus?
1b) what does "covert" mean there?
2) is "well-mended china" meaning china (jars, etc; porcelain) which was mended? (ie fixed after partly breaking) Or does the expression mean something else? Eg "well-preserved" etc.

 

[Takhisis]

is "well-mended china" meaning china (jars, etc; porcelain) which was mended? (ie fixed after partly breaking)

yes

 

[Kyriakos]

yes

Any insight on the other issue?

 

[Virote_Considon]

I think 1b) there means that the asparagus was in front of them otherwise obscuring them but they could be seen because they were glistening. At least that's how I read it.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think 1b) there means that the asparagus was in front of them otherwise obscuring them but they could be seen because they were glistening. At least that's how I read it.

Wouldn't that be an asparagus "fern"? Or - at any rate - would it be usual (at least for a farmhouse) to have asparagus (fern or otherwise) actually hiding the fireplace objects like the shovel and the tongs? The story takes place in the middle of winter, so having such objects so near the fireplace would be dangerous.

 

[tjs282]

Well, I had to look up 'andirons' myself: according to Wikipedia, these are metal supports (aka 'fire-dogs'), used to provide an airspace under logs while they burn. The front ends may be quite ornately molded, like this set from Tiffany's.

I guess 'covert' may be in the sense of 'covert feathers', which cover (streamline, and insulate) the base of the flight-feathers on birds' wings; although it could also be in the sense of a camouflaged shelter used for e.g. reconnaissance, hunting, or bird-watching. So your idea that the (front base of the) andirons might have moldings shaped like asparagus(-spears?), isn't a bad one.

A remote possibility is that the "asparagus tops" (if spears) are poking out of a pot which is sitting on the hearth, in front of the fire, to boil them for dinner. Objections to that, are that cooking would be done in the kitchen, rather than the parlour (it's a big house, yes? It would surely have a separate kitchen), and that winter is anyway not at all the right season for eating asparagus (unless it had spent the last 6 months in a preserving-jar)!

So I think @Virote_Considon is right, that a pot of asparagus ferns (which develop in late summer/autumn, if you don't harvest the spears in June-ish) has been set on the hearth, in front of the andirons, purely as decoration. Having a room(s) in your house that you use only rarely (and fill with ornaments), is a sign of wealth after all, so the 'best parlour' (and its fireplace) might well not be in daily — or even weekly — use. And the narrator is just peeking round the door, he isn't being invited into that room by his host...