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General Leader Discussion

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Ceilidh halls gives you +1 happiness in all cities, don't they? That along with an extra musician slot is pretty massive.
     
  2. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Yeah, the recent Circus change was a nice small indirect buff to Celidh Hall.

    Horse Archers are probably 3 on their own but 1 or 0 when you take the Hun's UA into account in one of the few cases of reverse synergy. I almost think they should trade UAs with Mongols, the fact that Khans are a Unique GP means Mongols don't have mounted melee + tons of free units competing with their UU.

    I'm still not sure how you can give Quinquieremes a 4. I had a recent game with early naval warfare as Carthage (not terribly common in the first place) and they were helpful, but not amazingly so, certainly not as much as something like CKNs or SotL would've been, or even solid but not amazing units like Samurai. And if you don't have a good map for naval warfare they're very little use.

    Also, you still have Camel Archers at 4 :p
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Mongol mounted ranged units are all essentially UUs, given their bonuses to the line.
     
  4. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    It would be neat to start your legacy of superpowered mounted ranged units with an actual UU that's not reliant on a strategic resource but that's a minor consideration, the reason I mentioned that is because Horse Archers are kind of pointless when combined with the Huns UA. They're not a bad UU in a vacuum but Huns want to build Horsemen early to get their army of barb units started, and once you do actually have your army of former barb units, spending production to build more new units is a bit of a waste and you run into unit cap/maintenance issues. I think the capturing ability means they can actually capture enemy UUs as well so it'd fit better on a civ that doesn't have a real UU of its own.
     
  5. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    I believe extra musicial slot for Celts is a waste. Never played them as tall and can't see any reason to do so if they are so awesome at warfare. If it's there - let it be, not of any use to me. +1 happiness is good - is it a reason to build it early on? Not really, if I go for wide empire, I tend to delay circus a lot and am happy sitting on small unhappiness.

    Well, I agree a bit abot that reverse synergy. On the other hand you attack with HA and finish with horsemen. And you need mobile army, this wont work well with melee.

    I give them 4 mostly for reconnaissance. Getting +1view/move and great lighthouse, you may find other continent and all other civs in classical era (happened to me many times, as I usually beeline towards GL). This is giving you such a huge advantage! But fair enough, on pangea it's crap, Ill change it to 3.

    Fixed and that moved Arabia back into crap tier :p
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Musician is like the most powerful specialist in the game, Great musicians are pretty meh, but the musician itself is great.
     
  7. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    I played Celts tall with Epona going for Culture victory in a recent game (I made a post about it in the Civ stories thread) and I was able to make some use of them. afaik the current benefits over the default Circus are 1 happiness, 1 faith, 3 culture, musician slot, music gw slot, the happiness in particular is nice since I'm rarely at 10+ happiness at the point they come. Anyways, I think the current rating reflects it well enough, it had some nice advantages over the neutral building it replaces but overall it's a bit weak compared to a lot of other UBs or UIs. Which is fine, because the UA and UU make up for it.

    I was fine with just the barb units I got plus the Horsemen in the one brief Huns game I played, I didn't really feel the need to make any Horse Archers beyond the obligation to use them because they're a unique unit. When you're gifting 5+ units to City States because you're at your unit cap and losing gold, building more units is the last thing you want to do. I put off building Barracks for a while too since I wasn't actually making any units of my own. There's also the minor consideration that once upgraded, Horse Archers are competing with your Horsemen line units for strategic resources (and the latter keep their abilities once upgraded, whereas the former just keep an Accuracy +1) but unless you're significantly unlucky you'll probably capture enough cities with Horses for it to not be a major concern.

    That's fair I think. Melee ships I'm not huge on in general because their main purpose is just to beat other ships, they're nearly useless against cities and can't do anything against land units so on any map that doesn't end up having a fair amount of naval combat their contributions are going to be pretty small.
     
  8. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    This is a smart format for tier list. Next time I do one I'll certainly use this format.


    Also regarding some comments regarding Sweden, maybe I'm judging them a little too harshly, but part of the reason I'm not the most fond of them is because of how infrequent and unaccountable the Great General aspect of their UA is, plus I'm not the most fond of their UU and find their UB pretty meh as well. I think if Sweden's UU had the Great General promotion to account for the first issue (though G may not want overlap with Japan's UU), and maybe the Skola got a slight buff, they'd be far better. It's been a while since I've played Sweden however. Maybe time has clouded my judgement, or they've already been buffed and I just don't know it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  9. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    I'm not 100% but I assume the way you would use it would be to go Honor and then later you could buy GGs for the instant heal, any naturally spawned ones would be icing. Though the GGs promotion for their UU would be nice as well.
     
  10. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    Purchased GGs don't provide instant heals. They need to be naturally born for the bonus. (Or at least, that's how I believe it is/was. Maybe I'm just a huge dummy, and that was added at some point without me realizing, but to my knowledge, that's not the case.)
     
  11. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    Inspired by Inidel88, I forged a new, more objective tier list. I also put in my 2 cents for EVERY civ I had ranked below A tier along with some constructive criticism and ideas on how they may be improved, so if you want to see A BUNCH of nitpicks and complaining, just scroll on down to B. I may be a little less hard than Inidel88 on civs, as I didn’t rank anyone below 17/30, but here’s my list regardless.

    [Slight overnight edits and revaluations added, I'm not going to 180 on my opinions or anything (yet). There were just a few number tweaks, and no other changes.]

    "Perfect Civ" Metric: UA/UB/UU = 15/10/5 based on relevance throughout the game.
    S Rank 26-30:

    Aztecs
    (13+9+4) = 26/30 - A gold and faith making machine! What even is a shrine!?
    Egypt (13+10+3) = 26/30 – Blah blah blah super great UB. UA’s also a very strong for production.
    Poland (15+6+3) +2 from UA = 26/30 – Best UA in the game. Incredibly “okay I guess” everything else.

    A Rank 21-25:

    Carthage (14+8+3) = 25/30 – SO MUCH MAHNY;
    Inca (12+7+5) +2 slinger = 24/30 – Super mobile, with my favorite UU in the game.
    Mongolia (9+10+4) = 23/30 – There UA’s great…but I’m not the type for excessive City-State grabbing.
    Huns (14+6+3) = 23/30 Their UA is easily one of the best in the game. Conscription is amazing, and if Horse Archers could do it, they’d be an easy S rank.
    Denmark (8+10+4) + 1 jelly = 23/30 - Jelly stones provides food, gold, culture, increased GP rates, AND city connections. It’s a beast of a UB.
    Indonesia (11+10+3) = 23/30 – Heard Denmark talking about their UB like they’re hot s**t. Also, SOOO MUUUCH SPIIICE.
    Babylon (12+8+3) = 23/30 – A tech heavy turtle and Korea’s rival for best science civ.
    Korea (13+7+3) = 23/30 – Heard Babylon talking s**t about science like it wouldn’t hear. Big fan of the UU exclusively because of Logistics.
    Shoshone (12+7+4) = 23/30 – F**K THE SHOSHONE GET OFFA MY CONTINENT.
    Germany (9+11+3) = 23/30 – I like late bloomer civs due to their rarity, and I believe late game, Germany’s the strongest…if you can get there of course. Their Panzer would be a 5+2 if it actually came in to play more often.
    Celts (13+5+4) = 22/30 – I don’t like that part of their UB bonus requires such a specific resource as Ivory and only Ivory, but I’m not asking for buffs when it comes to A rankers.
    Polynesia (10+10+2) +1 for UB = 23/30 – I still think the moai needs to be retooled with an adjacency cap, but whatevs. It gets the job done.
    Netherlands (11+8+3) = 22/30 – The best trade based civ in the game.
    Greece (11+8+3) = 22/30 – The best, and beefiest diplomacy civ.
    Maya (12+8+2) = 22/30 – I agree with the kuna comment Inidel88 made. It’s not FIX ME NOW major, but it’s immediate availability feels like an unfair advantage to only this civ.
    Songhai (10+8+4) = 22/30 – A great warmongering civ, and amazing with a river heavy map like the real world maps. Situational however.
    Ottomans (9+8+4) = 21/30 – Very good, but not very standoutish.
    England (10+7+4) = 21/30 – Their UA is more annoying than it is potent, but spying is spying, and I loves me some spying. That said ENGLAND GET OFF OF MY CONTINENT.
    Zulu (9+9+3) = 21/30 – I wish they weren’t so 1 dimensional. I said I’d give suggestions for civs that were B and below, but I will say Shaka could use a little color in this options. With Shaka being a man that united the Nguni tribes via being a big tough guy and Chading it up, I think it’d be neat if he gained (or even stole) City-State influence from the friends and allies of enemy civs he gets a successful peace treaty off of. Alternatively, he could get fat yields every first time he makes an ally.
    China (10+7+4) = 21/30 – The best growth based civ in the game.


    B Rank 16-20:

    Austria
    (11+7+2) = 20/30 – Austria is a civ that takes out a LOT of gold to attempt to ensure a victory that’s not too hard to achieve in the first place. I believe increasing the gold from the luxury aspect of the UB would help with the gold you’re investing while also making Austria more interesting to play as, due to a higher luxury dependence.
    Ethiopia (7+9+2) +2 stele = 20/30 – 5 to 6 free but non-timed techs is nice, but not much when competing with other science civs. I think Great Scientist points or a science boost would help, with the former giving more scientific freedom to the player.
    Rome (8+8+4) = 20/30 – Early war feels a bit discouraged considering their UA wants you to wait things out until your enemies get nice and building-y. That said, what if puppets didn’t have their science and culture penalties? Just a thought of something appropriate that no one has, not even Venice the puppet civ.
    Venice (10+7+4) = 20/30 Their 1 city handicap is the only thing that keeps them from being a solid A rank. Can’t think of many things I’d change about them currently, but I will say a small buff to the base yields of the Piazza San Marco would be nice, and something to beef up city states would be good (looking at you hard, suggestions for Rome). That said, they still snowball harder than most civs in the game, so I’d put buffing them low on the list of things that should happen, if at all.
    Spain (8+8+4) = 20/30 – Basically garbage if you can’t found your own religion. What if you gained the founder and reformation believes on any religion you adopt though? Just in case you somehow mess up, you can pull a Civ VI Congo on them.
    Russia (11+5+3) = 19/30 – Ostrog is “good” but very late and not worth the wait. It’d be a much better building without the castle requirement as the reduced tile purchasing cost, and movement penalties are great on later, less developed cities.
    Persia (8+7+4) = 19/30 – Considering how crazy golden ages get in the late game, an additional bonus to the “during golden ages” part of their UA would be great. What should it be? I dunno, maybe a flat bonus like +5 production or something, that way they shine brighter in the early game, when they historically should.
    Japan (8+7+3) = 18/30 – I’ve talked quite a bit before about certain UA aspects that I’m not fond of in Japan’s dedicated thread. I am not going to whine about what I want changed here, but above all else, I think they need a bonus to their trade routes to compensate for the trade route bonuses they may potentially miss out on.
    Portugal (5+8+5) = 18/30 – Simply put, their UA needs more “oomph”. Maye a +4 bonus instead of +3?
    France (7+8+3) = 18/30 – A little hard to pin any 1 thing that holds France back, but if I had to make a request, maybe gain golden age points when conquering enemy cities as to tie in with the first part of their UA.
    America (6+8+4) = 18/30 – Everything about America is great except for their UA, so I’m just going to spitball a few ideas.
    • 25 golden age points AND culture from purchasing tiles.
    • Free artifact when you purchase an enemy tile (considering their UB isn’t on archeology, which is kinda important for a hermitage)
      • Alternatively, gain flat culture/influence/extra golden age points from enemy tiles.
      • +X production and culture from enemy tiles.
    • Combat bonus when fighting in foreign lands (It is America after all).
    India (7+8+3) = 18/30 – I don’t think their ability is “total crap” but Inidel88 has a good point. Once they have their religion compromised, it’s pretty darn hard to recover from. Let them at least build inquisitors to protect themselves.
    Brazil (8+7+2) = 17/30 – I really like the changes to the Brazilwood camp, but I’m not putting Brazil's UI too high because I’m a Mr. Bias Brian. It’s certainly no 10 however. Seeing as the Bandeirantes’ original missions often involved slave trades and attacking native villages (which is nodded to somewhat by their brute force promotion) what if they gave production and culture when defeating bards/clearing encampments? Just a thought?
    Sweden (10+5+2) = 17/30 – I gave my criticisms earlier in this exact same thread. The Carolean should have the Great General promotion and the Skola could use a little love.
    Assyria (8+6+3) = 17/30 – I’ll admit, I don’t have much to say about Assyria, because they’re one of my least played civs, so the criticisms and gripes I have are not the most valid. Anyways, the Royal Library starting with The Epic of Gilgamesh for free would help set things in motion a lot faster for the civ, and just seems super appropriate, did I steal this idea from supracseduch…maaaybe.
    Arabia (8+7+2) = 17/30 – Make Camel Archers great again! Let em’ move after attacking again and I’d easily bump Arabia to a 20, maybe even a 21.
    Byzantium (8+6+3) = 17/30 – Half of the UA is just an emergency button for if other, better religion-ers are on the scene. What about the ability to purchase any great person right off the bat? That would be pretty sweet and give them quite a few options.
    Siam (8+6+3) = 17/30 – Kinda hard requesting improvements for a civ with a purely city-state based UA. I guess something independent of City-States for a starter. Also, bumping the Wat’s faith from +1 to +2 wouldn’t hurt no one.
    Morocco (8+7+2) = 17/30 – Being isolated can RUIN this civ, but that is a very rare scenario. Having only a few neighbors however is not, so how about the UA’s reworked a little: Receives +3 Gold, Golden Age Points and Culture for each Trade Route to or from a Civ or City-State. [removed the different civ or city-sate requirement but reduced the buonus from +4 to +3 to compensate]. Then we provide a cap like up to +20 or +25. I may be thinking about how the UA works differently from how it actually works though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Since only the lowest rank are worth discussing at this point in the project, let's go through the list. I'll offer a counterpoint where fitting.

    Austria - if you get a few marriages, you can absolutely dominate the WC and get tons of GPs. There's no counterplay for other players except for conquest of the CSs. A UA without a counterplay is pretty nice. Also, the Hussar is great for mid-game conquest (if need be) and the Coffee House is a steroid for your GP UA.

    Ethiopia: Most free techs come in the Classical/Medieval period when they matter most for getting to snowball wonders. The Stele nearly guarantees religion, and the Mehal is a powerful late-game defender.

    Rome: Way underrated here. The Coliseum is amazing. Rome's Legion helps for early conquest, but Rome's UA only gets stronger and stronger as the game goes along.

    Venice: Tough to judge. They can be absurd in human hands. The AI will never succeed with them.

    Spain: You can conquer a holy city for their UA effect, so your point is invalid. As such, a 'win more' religion button for their UA is great. No unhappiness from religious unrest (essentially) and instant bonuses for follower beliefs.

    Russia: Science early can help secure key wonders. The Ostrog is very cheap, and late-game new cities have enough production at start to get it in less than 10 turns.

    Persia: Snowballs very hard if the right GA elements are picked up. The Immortal is an amazing UU for its time.

    Japan: Conquest snowball with the tourism and TR mechanics to essentially lock out culture victory for anyone else. Seems pretty darn strong to me.

    Portugal: Probably right- +4 would be okay.

    France: Recent Chateau buff makes it one of the most potent UIs in the game.

    Brazil: Same as France re: UI - also the Bandeirantes is a really powerful unit on some map types.

    America: I think you undersell the UA. Being able to buy enemy tiles without a counterplay is very good. And their UB is a massive industrial steroid.

    Sweden: Best siege units in the game, and you need siege to take cities. I think you undersell the UA.

    Assyria: Same as Sweden. UA, UB, and UU are all tied to classical warfare. If you get it, you're snowballing.

    Arabia: underappreciated as a science civ because of the UA. Also the Camel Archer is plenty strong.

    India: Great growth, free Pantheon, massive religious pressure, and one of the strongest early UBs. I think you way undersell them.

    Byzantium: You forgot about their bonus belief, meaning that they could get two religious national wonders if they wanted (and they'd have absurd holy site if they did).

    Siam: The Wat got a buff recently, and the UA scales better than Germany's or Austria's in terms of yields. The UU is okay.

    Morocco: Great UI, makes Moroccan cities very hard to capture. The UA is solid too, more so than you give it credit for. UU is alright.


    So, I think that Portugal could use a small buff, but everyone else (I feel) is being undervalued a bit. All the B-tier civs are definitely either more situational or require more 'steps' to come online than A/S tier, but they're often some of the strongest snowballs because of that.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Just my 2 cents-
    Sweden's extra damage is great, you just won't notice the moments where it secured a kill another civ would have missed unless you look for it. America's line of sight is similar, unless you think about it you won't notice the times you spotted ruins or how much faster your scout is gaining XP (I do find America really underwhelming though)

    Having played several games with India and China this week, I do not think India is weaker at all. The Harrpan reservoir deserves a 10 on that scale, possibly with additional +1 or +2. You can get farms with more total yields than great person tiles in Medieval. Despite not having a paper maker, I keep winning science faster with India, frankly moving from China to India felt like moving down a difficulty.
     
  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    On Siam: With only like 3 Maritime CS Allies, your Capital gets enough Food to be like a Tradition Capital.

    And the UB is nice when you have a good Forest near your Capital.


    I really like the Moroccan Kasbahs. Great Yields, has a nice Defense bonus, and you can up to 6 per City. Get Autocracy for Military Complex (+3 Science on UI) and you are set on Beakers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  15. JungleBucks

    JungleBucks Warlord

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    Slight edits made based on current comments. I'm not changing any of my opinions however until I really feel I should, or it just retrospectively feels wrong. I said I would provide at least one suggestion for an improvement for any civ I put in B after all, so something should be there.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Speaking of murica, did the price for purchasing tiles change recently, or are Americans just missing their 50% discount? Last game I played them, second to the latest version I think, tiles just felt really expensive, I mean I didn't have any tiles under 100 gold (standard speed). The way I remember the civ, back in the day, the first tiles you bought were somewhere along the lines of 45 gold.
     
  17. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    I've always thought Austria looked pretty good. Not top tier (I'm not quite sure how much diplomatic marriage costs) but early-mid game removing influence decay could give you a valuable alliance for a long time, and later they get extra votes and should be able to generate tons of GP.

    Assyria actually seems like it would also kind of want to go Tradition and focus on Culture and generating GWs for a bit rather than go to war in Classical era. The more GWs you have, the more bonus EXP you get on new units, and you also get bonus science for each GW, so combined with the tech-stealing you have a nice Science slingshot effect once you start conquering. Siege Towers come in Classical but they're a support unit so they should remain consistently effective throughout most of the game, I think? Or at least until Artillery.

    I still kinda wish their UA had a boost towards founding a religion (like a free Great Prophet on a specific tech) rather than a safety net for founding/beliefs like it does currently. Like many other things in Civ, religion is a race, not just to found but also to spread, and if you're having to use the safety net then you're behind as it is. I guess if you chose a 3rd follower belief there are reasons to not spread it a la Celts, and being able to found no matter what means that the bonus belief will never (theoretically) be wasted which makes sense, but eh, the guaranteed part still feels like a bit of a waste.

    2nd Founder belief and superpowered Holy Sites sounds neat too though, especially with all the extra Faith they get from their UB. There are some other fun things you could do with it, assuming it works for Enhancer I'd love to try stacking Ritual and Scripture to take over the world with your religion.

    The recent nerf to Siege against units probably hurt Sweden a lot (I didn't play them pre-nerf, but my strategy would've involved making them a core part of my army). Maybe they could have the Siege penalty against units removed or reduced as part of their UA?

    Oh, if not that's a bit disappointing. I haven't played them so can't say for sure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  18. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    I'm just going to be replying based on the previous version I played, which is the Oct 28. I've been busy playing other stuff atm, but thought I'd chime in on the discussions. (These are in reply to G's post mainly)

    Austria - if you get a few marriages, you can absolutely dominate the WC and get tons of GPs. There's no counterplay for other players except for conquest of the CSs. A UA without a counterplay is pretty nice. Also, the Hussar is great for mid-game conquest (if need be) and the Coffee House is a steroid for your GP UA.

    Problem is getting those marriages. And you're heavily reliant on people not conquering city states. It's hard to protect city states as Austria when their UU comes a little late.

    Ethiopia: Most free techs come in the Classical/Medieval period when they matter most for getting to snowball wonders. The Stele nearly guarantees religion, and the Mehal is a powerful late-game defender.

    I agree with this assessment. Ethiopia's fine.

    Rome: Way underrated here. The Coliseum is amazing. Rome's Legion helps for early conquest, but Rome's UA only gets stronger and stronger as the game goes along.

    Yea...Rome is very strong.

    Venice: Tough to judge. They can be absurd in human hands. The AI will never succeed with them.

    While Venice can be absurd, they play under a very limiting rule. They aren't exactly the greatest when production is usually limited to your capital only.

    Spain: You can conquer a holy city for their UA effect, so your point is invalid. As such, a 'win more' religion button for their UA is great. No unhappiness from religious unrest (essentially) and instant bonuses for follower beliefs.

    I don't think Spain's bad by any means, just overshadowed. My B tiers are respectable in a way, but just overshadowed by others because they are simply more powerful in some way (but B tiers are very functional still).

    Russia: Science early can help secure key wonders. The Ostrog is very cheap, and late-game new cities have enough production at start to get it in less than 10 turns.

    While the science helps, culture is what secures the wonders nowadays. So I don't think the assessment is entirely correct. However, being technologically ahead has its non-wonder perks in accessing key infrastructure earlier to snowball.

    Persia: Snowballs very hard if the right GA elements are picked up. The Immortal is an amazing UU for its time.

    Wait, what? Why is Persia even here? Any buffs to them and they'll be the next Pre-nerf Songhai. The immortals are powerhouses and if they get their GA engine going, it's absolutely ABSURD (and with your early military might, you just might get those wonders, or take them by force).

    Japan: Conquest snowball with the tourism and TR mechanics to essentially lock out culture victory for anyone else. Seems pretty darn strong to me.

    Japan isn't the strongest civ for sure, but they're still one of the better ones IMO.

    Portugal: Probably right- +4 would be okay.

    Ok. This is warranted.

    France: Recent Chateau buff makes it one of the most potent UIs in the game.

    I think they were fine even before the Chateau buffs.

    Brazil: Same as France re: UI - also the Bandeirantes is a really powerful unit on some map types.

    After the changes, they were faring better. But I still think having bandeirantes is really terrible (granted, I play on Pangaea).

    America: I think you undersell the UA. Being able to buy enemy tiles without a counterplay is very good. And their UB is a massive industrial steroid.

    Yes, they're strong at being passive aggressive. And their UUs allow them to be strong defensively when they have the coffers to start buying land at an alarming rate.

    Sweden: Best siege units in the game, and you need siege to take cities. I think you undersell the UA.

    By far the strongest siege units. Though a GA Persia could make them cry, but that's a different story.

    Assyria: Same as Sweden. UA, UB, and UU are all tied to classical warfare. If you get it, you're snowballing.

    I've snowballed pretty hard as them before, and they ARE strong. I think people undervalue the siege towers and how they influence the early game wars a lot.

    Arabia: underappreciated as a science civ because of the UA. Also the Camel Archer is plenty strong.

    Easiest cultural victory civ in the game...Annoying to deal with UU, and a UB that helps spread tourism via enabling long distance trade routes earlier.

    India: Great growth, free Pantheon, massive religious pressure, and one of the strongest early UBs. I think you way undersell them.

    I agree completely with this.

    Byzantium: You forgot about their bonus belief, meaning that they could get two religious national wonders if they wanted (and they'd have absurd holy site if they did).

    You can make some crazy religion combinations with the bonus beliefs, and can even start with an enhanced belief. But still, I feel like they are quite lacking in having a solid win condition. They're flexible, but a jack of all trades is a master of none.

    Siam: The Wat got a buff recently, and the UA scales better than Germany's or Austria's in terms of yields. The UU is okay.

    The meet city states first gambit. I think that's the best way to define how well Siam does in general.

    Morocco: Great UI, makes Moroccan cities very hard to capture. The UA is solid too, more so than you give it credit for. UU is alright.

    I agree.
     
  19. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    478
    Location:
    Yuggoth
    Speaking from emperor/immortal player POV and standard maps. And single player.

    I agree Austria is good, but shines quite late. And you have to accept, you'll be just friends with some CS, as it's not uncommon to see 'oh, you need 3254 influence to pass X to become ally'. Coffee house +33% GP seems fairly irrelevant, as you'll be pumping GP with your capital anyway, which gets +75% with barely 5 CS marriages anyway. And it's not uncommon to get like 8-10 of them.

    As mentioned above, science is not an issue early on. Unless you go quite heavy into tradition and culture or authority (which seems against Ethiopia logic), you'll be looking for ages on that wonders you can't build, as you miss policies. Beelining Petra? Great Lighthouse? Forget about it. Even going straight for Pyramids, one has to wait for number of policies.

    Venice is fine and can't be properly ranked in any ratings tbh. Actually only problem with Venice is force limit if you get war in medieval or so against outnumbering opponent.

    Maybe it's just me, but I never ever had any problem with religious unrest unhappiness. Especially if you compare it to crime, which is always a huge issue. I still think conquistator are strongest thing in Spain.

    As above, science is not an issue early on. Ostrog? There is no place on the map to build a city when Ostrog comes into play. Maybe that one single arctic island AI forgot about, that will give you 2 fish. Tile cost is irrelevant at that point, it's all about extra production (good) and production. But again - game is usually decided by time when Ostrog comes into play and AI don't even understand they are losing, so won't attack you at any cost and if you're losing, you don't really need defensive building, do you?

    Persia is ok, but come on, how many GAs did you have before medieval?

    Not even once I have seen Japan being relevant as AI. GWAM points are ok, but not even close to very good. I'd take raw culture any day. Comparing to what Vikings or Greece gets from war and their UB, Japans UA is crap.

    Sweden it's only about war. Only. If someone likes it - ok. I like to have options.

    True, but classical warfare seems like 'all-in' in casino. If you fail, you're behind in buildings, science, gold, likely religion and you basically lost the game. On the other side, if you win, you'll snowball anyway, this ability just makes you win easier later on.

    Let's do some math. When do you get historic events? Win war (sth you try to avoid if going for sci/culture win), advance era, GP born, create wonder. Ok. So by industrial you can have like +30c/30s in capital from UA. Now let's look at Germany in industrial. 2 allied CS gives the same output. How many GP will you get from UA over the whole game? 5? With total randomness.

    UB is good, ok. UA for AI is a joke. And for player - it was mentioned many times - early pantheon limits your options (excluded, as totally random: god of craftsmen, open sky, sea, start+sky, nature, maybe purity, springtime and hunt). So yea, you can get pantheon at the start, but unless you save-scum or something, the list is quite limited.

    You still have to get early religion, as otherwise you will be eaten by pressure and missionaries (which are not as aggressive as before and that helps). That extra belief is good, but we are not saying if something is good, but if something is better than other civs. And it's not.

    I'm not even going to judge by multiplayer here, as I don't play MP, but I can imagine how easy to kill Morocco is as another player.
    How many TR can you get? Let's say 8. To benefit from UA you have to send them all to foreign lands, meaning you're losing all internal TRs. If you get struck by surprise war - you lose your caravans, gold income, culture income... And yes, that happened to me couple of times. I'm not even talking about isolated starts, but if you start on relatively small island with two warmongers, are you going to risk everything and send you caravans to them? I would add 'when war is declared, caravans instead of being destroyed go back to city'. That would give Morocco nice failsafe.
     
    JungleBucks likes this.
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,273
    Location:
    Venice, California
    Re: India.

    India is a no-brainer powerhouse -- maybe the easiest civ of all to kick ass with. Who cares if the early pantheon limits your choices? You know what you want with India, and you can't miss getting it. The UB is a hell of a lot more than good. I'll assume you haven't played with them lately, in which case, you should reserve an opinion until you do.
     

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