Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by tomsnowman123, Jan 29, 2007.
Wanted to post this before I went to bed...
Both sides on this direct violence towards civilians. Both sides suffer from the horrors of indiscriminate violence.
Neither side wants to actually resolve the matter, except entirely in their favor.
In other words, situation normal for the middle east. It sucks. It's wrong. And it won't stop for a long, long time because no neutral party is willing to step into the mess.
I Googled the author and title and found it at http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/696/36148
I also found a different draft and various sites, published at slightly earlier dates, titled ""Terror and Starvation in Gaza".
It's wrong, but extremely difficult for the Isreali's to safely right and not as wrong as the NAZI camps. I don't see how you can call it genocide either.
A genocide is engulfing the people of Gaza while a silence engulfs its bystanders. Some 1.4 million people, mostly children, are piled up in one of the most densely populated regions of the world, Blame arab countries for attacking Israel for that, if they wouldn't gaza would have been much bigger, you can also blame the insane population growth with no freedom of movement, no place to run and no space to hide, Maybe if they wouldn't try to blow themselves up , they'll get better rights, and do'nt tell me about yesterdays bombing, becuase there hasn;t been one for about a year wrote senior UN relief official Jan Egeland and Jan Eliasson, then Swedish foreign minister, in Le Figaro. They described people living in a cage, cut off by land, sea and air, with no reliable power and little water, and tortured by hunger and disease and incessant attacks by Israeli troops and planes. whoops, Israel hasn't attacked gaza in any major way for several months
Egeland and Eliasson wrote this four months ago as an attempt to break the silence in Europe, whose obedient alliance with the United States and Israel has sought to reverse the democratic result that brought Hamas to power in last years Palestinian elections. Becuase this democratic election would lead to a never ending war in gaza, thanks to hamas which won't recognize Israel The horror in Gaza has since been compounded; a family of 18 has died beneath a 500-pound US/Israeli bomb; unarmed women have been mown down at point-blank range. I'm sad at this,it was a mistake of the artillary squad, but that artillary squad was attempting to hit the kassam lauchers
Dr David Halpin, one of the few Britons to break what he calls this medieval siege, reported the killing of 57 children by artillery, rockets and small arms and was shown evidence that civilians are Israels true targets, as in Lebanon last summer. if civillans were Israels true targets. there would be no more gaza in a month A friend in Gaza, Dr Mona El-Farra, emailed: I see the effects of the relentless sonic booms [a collective punishment by the Israeli air force] again, a practice stopped and artillery on my 13-year-old daughter. At night, she shivers with fear. Then both of us end up crouching on the floor. I try to make her feel safe, but when the bombs sound I flinch and scream
and when the rockets land in sderot the same happens
When I was last in Gaza, Dr Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist, showed me the results of a remarkable survey. The statistic I personally find unbearable, he said, is that 99.4 per cent of the children we studied suffer trauma. woldn't trust this study Once you look at the rates of exposure to trauma you see why: 99.2 per cent of their homes were bombarded; 97.5 per cent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 per cent witnessed shootings; 95.8 per cent witnessed bombardment and funerals; almost a quarter saw family members injured or killed. Dr Dahlan invited me to sit in on one of his clinics. There were 30 children, all of them traumatised. He gave each pencils and paper and asked them to draw. They drew pictures of grotesque acts of terror and of women streaming tears.more pathos, we have kids who at the holocaust drew happy pictures, so what?
The excuse for the latest Israeli terror was the capture last June of an Israeli soldier, a member of an illegal occupationwhich wasn't even in gaza, he was outside the borders protecting them, by the Palestinian resistance. This was news. The kidnapping a few days earlier by Israel of two Palestinians terrorists two of thousands taken over the years was not news. An historian and two foreign journalists have reported the truth about Gaza. All three are Israelis. They are frequently called traitors. No, just IdiotsThe historian Ilan Pappe has documented that the genocidal policy [in Gaza] is not formulated in a vacuum, but part of Zionisms deliberate, historic ethnic cleansing.
The rest is just more of the same.
Palestinian joking call this there "weapon of mass destruction"
there desire to proprograte as many children as possible in order to swamp the isrealies. This stratergy is utter maddness the UN were right to pull out all funding it is total abuse and cynical manipulation of the Aid given
Of course the Isrealies are not without fault
Nivi, how many times must I explain this. Now understand.
Israel has worked hard to maintain this image of the "only democracy in the middle east" and so on.
A blantant and outright act of genocide would ruin it. Therefore they resort to more limited and clandestine methods, because there are factors to consider.
Maybe Israel should pull out, cease all aggression, opression and then talk about how they are being attacked. Israel should first pull back, take its forces from forieign soil, and then peace talks may commence, not the otherway around.
Why blame Hamas for what ultimately is Israeli fault. Israel is the beginning of all this hell, and it is the few Israelis who want land over peace.
Month is a very short time. The memories and the damage left by the past attacks are still there. Also, Israel deliberately prevents all progress in both Palestinain areas, leaving people into conditions that mirror the worst parts of Africa.
So is it Fatah performing Genocide on Hamas or vice versa? I forget which.
Months, and what happens? They can't shoot at Israel so they point thiere guns at themselves. Yes, the memories are still there, but they are just the same for Israelis, yet we don't bomb them becuase of memories. Progress does not happen by itself, if you want progress, you gotta work for it, if the schools would focus more on teaching scince rather then teaching hate, maybe there would be progress.
The point of the article posted seems to be that people in Gaza are living like human battery-chickens.
Or perhaps like human fish in a barrel is a more apt figure, being shot at at a semi-regular basis by Israel. Some of the fish are capable of nasty bites but the minnows get it as well.
The animal metaphorics seem to present themselves very readily. Perhaps because the Palestinians have to a great extent been reduced to living as if they were. Not really through their own actions.
Ah..a lot of the news from Gaza in the last few months has been about Fatah and Hamas killing each other....not the Israelis shooting them.
Bottom line, if the folks in Gaza dont like the conditions...dont elect terrorists.
Seem fairly straightforward to me.
This contradicts your belief that the Jewish world conspiracy controls the media. If we Israelis truly have such a far-fetched, shadow-government capable of such unspeakable acts of murder and starvation - why the hell go through all the trouble of bothering to hide it when you can just have the friendly media dismiss it all as hoaxes and lies?
There's very little gray area between these two extremes - if you're shooting at someone, or if you're cutting them off from the world, you're either right in doing so or wrong. It's either one or the other here... either the Israeli government is just that - a government operating to ensure the defense of its people - or a bloodthirsty organization of maniacs hellbent on DEATH DEATH DEATH!!!!!
The turtle & Achilles would disagree with you. Between any two points there can be infinite other intermediate points. Black & white, the way you see it, is just not helpful nor is it acceptable.
Moreover Israel could not be killing civilians much more rapidly than it already does, without being faced with more problems from the international community.
First realise that any nation which would be acting like Israel would be facing the same reactions. Only religious people care about judaism in any other way. If Israel was populated by WASP americans and acting as it is now it would have been met with the same suicide bombings.
As opposed to "Instead elect the same old cabal of corrupt bastards on the take"?
That aside you're asking the Palestinians to throw themselves at the mercy of the Israelis, which is fairly limited, something they won't do, and I can't see why this would surprise anybody.
Curiously enough, these days a some people in Gaza have started to claim that holding elections under the present conditions was just nonsense. Continued direct Israeli occupation would have been preferable. Then it would have been clear to everybody who is in fact in charge and who it is they are opposing.
Now they're getting indirect occupation (Gaza is so narrow you can spit across it), the sham of being able to run their own affairs and a democracy that has no power to decide just about anything of real importance for their present condition.
But as you in fact end up saying, the only real option they are in fact being given is to roll over in front of the Israelis, all other options are sham options, it's just dressed up nicer. Israel holds the leash and yanks it frequently. (Nice, another animal metaphor.)
To recapitulate a number of truisms:
And one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
The normal response to occupation and opression is rebellion.
Political conflicts rarely have long term military solutions.
There really is nothing to be astonished about, unless someone for some ulterior reason is willfully going out of his way not to comprehend things.
I mean, old Ben Gurion understood. He's on record back in the 60's, saying that he recognised that had he been born a Palestinian, he would be fighting Israel with every breath in his body. It's what you can expect in a political conflict like this.
Why contemporary Israelis (and Americans) seem to absolutely refuse to even try to put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians as a thought experiment, like Ben Gurion did, is beyond me.
Verbose - mainly because it was Ehud Barak, and not Ben Gurion, that stated he'd be a member of a Palestinian Resistance group, and two - because most Americans or Israelis find the concept of blowing yourself up in a bakery revolting.
More Israeli "terror prevention".
That is not a truism. That is a bullfeathers statement used to justify purposely blowing up innocent children on school buses. Try again.
You mean Israel used bombs? During war time? Oh the humanity!
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Clearly, this is what's really happening in the territories.
Oh well, yet another case of whining idiots deliberately polluting our language and thus destroying any chance of civil discourse.
Separate names with a comma.