[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[Birdjaguar]

Due to an extremely high volume of reports from the previous thread, we have decided to start a new thread for the Gaza conflict, with the terms of engagement more clearly stated. We want you all to focus on the ongoing news and dwell less on atrocities past and present. We all know women, children and civilians are dying. More and more of that reporting is not helpful.

Our goal is for participants to discuss the news without calling each other genocide supporters or Nazis or whatever other easy throw away words there are to belittle each other.

-- No use of Nazi, fascist, racist, anti-Semitic, or other politically charged terms being applied to another forum member. No personal attacks. If you think someone is baiting you, report them and move on.
-- As in the Ukraine thread, if you think someone is posting propaganda, either explain why or don't engage. Just yelling "propaganda!" at other posters is not a profitable discussion.
-- Normal RD thread rules are still in effect, and all existing thread-bans have been carried over from the previous thread.
-- Staff will use infraction points with long activation times, thread bans, site bans and deleting posts as tools to control the discussion.
-- Participants can expect some posts will "hidden" for review by staff before either being deleted or revealed.

Ongoing or purposeful violation of the rules/standards we are establishing for this thread may incur 2-3 day thread-bans at the discretion of the staff.

Thank you for your help in keeping this discussion going smoothly.

 

[Estebonrober]

‘No ceasefire, no votes’: tens of thousands attend pro-Palestinian rally in Washington DC

Protesters call on Biden to demand ceasefire in Israel-Gaza conflict and end military aid to Israel

www.theguardian.com

that is all

 

[Broken_Erika]

Turkey recalls Israel ambassador and cuts talks with Netanyahu​

Turkey has recalled its ambassador to Israel following the country's refusal to agree to a ceasefire in its conflict with Hamas.

Turkey's foreign ministry stated that the withdrawal was the result of the "unfolding humanitarian tragedy in Gaza caused by the continuing attacks by Israel against civilians, and Israel's refusal [to accept] a ceasefire".

In 2022, Sakir Ozkan Torunlar became Turkey's first ambassador to Israel in four years after the country withdrew its former ambassador in protest of the killing of dozens of Palestinians in 2018.

The move reflects an emerging tension between the two countries, with Tukey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan saying earlier that his government will cut off communication with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"Netanyahu is no longer someone we can talk to. We have written him off," Turkish media quoted Erdogan as saying.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67305304

 

[Gorbles]

Let's have a recap of where we're at:

Israel deports thousands of stranded Palestinian workers back to Gaza

About 3,200 people reportedly sent to war-torn strip through Kerem Shalom crossing in ‘deeply concerning’ move

www.theguardian.com

A continuing uptick on attacks on journalists, as well:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720189612977520975

The Tweet reads:

Another Palestinian journalist in Gaza killed by Israel, Mohammed Abu Hattab and 11 members of his family were killed in Khan Younis, SOUTH of Gaza, where residents were told to flee too. This is his death being announced on TV. You don't need to understand Arabic, just watch.

The reporter is Hind Hassan, currently with VICE, formerly Al Jazeera and Sky News, so I'm assuming the source is good based on her report. And in fact seems to be confirmed in a Tweet since.

And I'm sorry for the direct image source, it's apparently from WaPo (who tend to paywall their articles anyway), but just making the running tally clear:

 

[amadeus]

Replying to replies to me from the closed thread:

@Gorbles
I did not include East Jerusalem as part of the discussion because it is legally a part of Israel according to the Jerusalem law—I know that few countries recognize this, but in its internal management it is not one of those ambiguous areas like the other settlements or Gaza.

@Verbose
Yes, Hamas won the elections in 2006 and then broke away, whether they had legitimate grievances with the unity government or not I can’t say but as far as I’m concerned they’re still really a bunch of no-good terrorists who didn’t actually try to moderate like the PLO. Palestinian democracy is still a sham, so it’s also hard for me to find sympathy with Fatah, but it is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Gorbles]

I did not include East Jerusalem as part of the discussion because it is legally a part of Israel according to the Jerusalem law—I know that few countries recognize this, but in its internal management it is not one of those ambiguous areas like the other settlements or Gaza.

Sorry, I lost track of what the discussion was about, but generally speaking, "legally in the eyes of the occupying power" is a rather awkward thing to rely on. Would we in any other conflict? I don't really want to get into a historical tangent, but it seems odd to consider it settled just because they've been able to get away with it for a few decades, because that means anyone can, in moral theory.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Let's begin fresh and not drag posts from the previous thread into this one.

 

[amadeus]

Sorry, I lost track of what the discussion was about

The question was one, broadly speaking, if Israel is at war with a state or not.

"legally in the eyes of the occupying power" is a rather awkward thing to rely on. Would we in any other conflict?

Interesting question for another thread (@Birdjaguar posted between the time of me writing this and getting it posted) but I would say yes with reservations: best example I have is the former Spanish Sahara has been part of Morocco since the 1970’s and based on my cursory readings of the conflict most countries have accepted their sovereignty over the region.

I would also expand this to states with limited or no recognized sovereignty like Somaliland or the Russian occupation of Crimea which was condemned but increasingly tolerated until 2022. Again, further discussion would be better served elsewhere but I just wanted to say I don’t think this is unprecedented or isolated to Israel.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

I'd like to thank the staff for at least listening to my suggestion in the other topic, and I think this is the best result I could've hoped for.

As I said, it was becoming increasingly difficult to discuss current news without having to trudge through decades of geopolitical conflict first. And I hope this topic will have much more focus on present events.

 

[Verbose]

@Verbose
Yes, Hamas won the elections in 2006 and then broke away, whether they had legitimate grievances with the unity government or not I can’t say but as far as I’m concerned they’re still really a bunch of no-good terrorists who didn’t actually try to moderate like the PLO. Palestinian democracy is still a sham, so it’s also hard for me to find sympathy with Fatah, but it is the lesser of two evils.

And yet the Palestinians is one of the peoples in the Mid East most directly prepped for democracy. They have had Israel as and example to look at for a very long time.

 

[amadeus]

And yet the Palestinians is one of the peoples in the Mid East most directly prepped for democracy. They have had Israel as and example to look at for a very long time.

What do you think of the argument that Israel keeps intentionally applying negative pressure on the Palestinian government so it appears to be a basketcase with only Israeli governance as the preferable outcome?

 

[NinjaCow64]

As I said, it was becoming increasingly difficult to discuss current news without having to trudge through decades of geopolitical conflict first. And I hope this topic will have much more focus on present events.

I cannot agree with this. The decades of geopolitical conflict are important context to understand for present events, just looking at present events gives an unclear and out of context picture on what is going on.

And yet the Palestinians is one of the peoples in the Mid East most directly prepped for democracy. They have had Israel as and example to look at for a very long time.

Israel is a terrible example of democracy as it disallows Palestinians to vote in elections to maintain Israel’s religious and ethnic character.

 

[gay_Aleks]

And yet the Palestinians is one of the peoples in the Mid East most directly prepped for democracy. They have had Israel as and example to look at for a very long time.

I suppose if Israel wants to teach Palestinians democracy the way the U.S does it, yes - what a great example.

Practically a copy, now that one thinks about it.

 

[Lexicus]

If you thought far-right Zionist Twitter was insane before October 7th it is now in a sort of Hitler in the bunker in April 1945 level of insanity and bloodlust. They are basically saying that everyone in Gaza is a crisis actor, it's mind-boggling

 

[gay_Aleks]

The addition of "far right" here is unnecessary, and dare I say - inflammatory.

 

[Zardnaar]

Israel is a terrible example of democracy as it disallows Palestinians to vote in elections to maintain Israel’s religious and ethnic character.

Democracy doesn't tend to work when people vote on ethnic lines.

Palestinians are not citizens if Israel (eone are they get to vote iirc).

 

[Lexicus]

The addition of "far right" here is unnecessary, and dare I say - inflammatory.

Fair enough, I'd still say right-wing Zionist twitter but whatever.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Luckily, there's a lot of levelheaded Zionists out there in the world, who are building a constructive, peaceful two-state solution with Palestine. I'm sure of that.

 

[FriendlyFire]

If you thought far-right Zionist Twitter was insane before October 7th it is now in a sort of Hitler in the bunker in April 1945 level of insanity and bloodlust. They are basically saying that everyone in Gaza is a crisis actor, it's mind-boggling

For some strange reason, announcing 500 dead and then showing a burnt out car park would make people doubt the figures announced by Hamas
its mind boggling

 

[NinjaCow64]

Palestinians are not citizens if Israel (eone are they get to vote iirc).

Yes, because Israel is an apartheid state.