[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Moriarte]

I would agree with your criticism if I was making an argument that police violence is a non-issue. It is a serious issue, it can be addressed and it should be addressed.
However, I don't think it is disingenuous to ask from people who apparenlty wish to save 200+ black lives annually lost to police is US (let's pretend for a moment that all of those deaths are unjustified) by simply "disbanding the police" ... what is the plan then for saving 7000+ black lives lost to everyone else? Never mind all other types of crime.
It looks like treating a migraine with a guillotine. And I'm really not trying to downplay how horrible the migraine may be.

Context, man. He writes us letters from distant anarchic future, where economic inequality has been resolved, and no one North America carries a gun.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, there is a desperate need for a bottom-up approach. As you say, heart disease is the major killer. Heart disease has a series of causal factors that can be linked to poverty. Bottom up.

The BLM movement is going to be mostly about the state misapplying violence in a way that doesn't benefit anybody except a few investors.

There are always bigger fish, and it's even important for people to be working on those bigger fish. I am never going to insist that a malaria advocate give up significant resources in order to support efforts against something less devastating. But if somebody is focussing on something I think is less important, there might be some effort to task them upwards

Human intuitions around this are super weird. Like, figuring out if I should care about malaria at about 80% that I put into Coronavirus is a bit of a head-scratcher.

But sometimes people bring up their alternative ideas as diversion, rather than redirection. And don't get fooled, because the end game is a true bottom up set of changes

 

[Seon]

Part of BLM movement's agenda is to siphon away funds meant to be going to the Police to places where they would better help the community, such as better healthcare and other emergency and community services, so it's not like the two goals are entirely separate from one another either.

 

[cardgame]

Yeah, there is a desperate need for a bottom-up approach. As you say, heart disease is the major killer. Heart disease has a series of causal factors that can be linked to poverty. Bottom up.

The BLM movement is going to be mostly about the state misapplying violence in a way that doesn't benefit anybody except a few investors.

There are always bigger fish, and it's even important for people to be working on those bigger fish. I am never going to insist that a malaria advocate give up significant resources in order to support efforts against something less devastating. But if somebody is focussing on something I think is less important, there might be some effort to task them upwards

Human intuitions around this are super weird. Like, figuring out if I should care about malaria at about 80% that I put into Coronavirus is a bit of a head-scratcher.

But sometimes people bring up their alternative ideas as diversion, rather than redirection. And don't get fooled, because the end game is a true bottom up set of changes

Say, I wonder if black people being kept in poverty by aggressive discrimination and over-policing has anything to do with unjust use of force against people like George Floyd

that would be wild, wouldn't it?

 

[El_Machinae]

Part of BLM movement's agenda is to siphon away funds meant to be going to the Police to places where they would better help the community, such as better healthcare and other emergency and community services, so it's not like the two goals are entirely separate from one another either.

Yeah, it's definitely grown. Now, it's just a function of labeling, but watching Black Lives Matter pivot to Defund has been quite amazing on my end. I surely support the concerns of BLM, but Defund is going to be where all the long-term benefit derives, if we do it right. Canada desperately needs every tool invented to deal with BLM's concerns. Our First Nations suffer under institutional racism and the punishing of poverty in ways that only systemic messaging from outside of our country can penetrate people's blindness here.

 

[Crezth]

I'm not redefining anything. You're the one who is simultaneously trying to rely on official reports and dismiss them as "fudged".

I’m trying to explain why your attempts to keep summoning the police-reported numbers is missing the point and pigeonholing your argument in a futile pit. Again you were happy to attribute the fluctuation to random chance and I pointed out it’s actually in any case a good demonstration of both the theories that police fabricate crime and that crime goes down. Even so, whether “actual crime” goes down is irrelevant to the stats you keep citing, ESPECIALLY when you supply speculation about the actual cause of that variation including random chance and people just deciding not to report crimes. You have no evidence for those things and it’s how this started, you tilting at windmills.

I’d also like you to consider the point that police beatings also went down, self evidently, and this could easily be considered crime to observers. That plus a lower reported rate and it’s hard to actually argue the police are benefiting the communities they terrorize.

This is why it’s a little grotesque when you justify the system is mostly successful because it locked up another million Black people.

At this point if you still want to justify policing in Black communities and split hairs about the fact the police tell you they’re not that bad, all I can say is thanks for nothing. The US has created a miniature third world within its borders which it polices with extreme prejudice. When that population rises up, the government response is like an Iraq counter-insurgency operation. It’s completely reasonable anyone would want to be free of that.

I think I've been rather clear on that US police has serious issues that need to be addressed. Urgently.
However, do you really think "doing away with police" is going to improve overall life expectancy of black Americans?

Replace “police” with “slavery” or “Jim Crow” and ask again.

Alternatively: “Do you really think doing away with the Raj will improve overall life expectancy of Indians?”

 

[Crezth]

Also:

POLICE let 7000 Black people die to gun violence, that’s fine. What’s the plan to save the dead? Well the police already blew it, so.

Imagine calling Jim Crow a migraine and civil rights a guillotine. Incredible.

 

[Kyriakos]

What I don't get is why it would be a bad idea to not make this a civil war/60s/KKK/black vs white issue.

Surely if there's a chance to reform the murderous police, it makes no sense to go down the route of the usual, endless and never leading to anything racial debate in the US.

And if you still choose to do just that, at least don't be oblivious of sacrificing the possibility of reforming the police, due to insisting on having the same never-ending debate which doesn't need the police murders to exist.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Amazing, after 200 pages of point-blank proof that the police is behaving like a violent, uncontrollable gang, that is regularly threatening civil authorities that want to do even the minimal reforms, you're still asking, "maybe reform could be sought out!!". If there is any aggressor in here, it's the police. If anyone is making it a "white vs. black" (as if this is an issue from now!) issue, it's the police. If the civil war is going to be started, it'll be the settler colonial state firing the first shot, not anyone else. Moderator Action: Snip

Moderator Action: Please don't tell others to shut up. They have as much right to speak as you do. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Crezth]

What I don't get is why it would be a bad idea to not make this a civil war/60s/KKK/black vs white issue.

Surely if there's a chance to reform the murderous police, it makes no sense to go down the route of the usual, endless and never leading to anything racial debate in the US.

And if you still choose to do just that, at least don't be oblivious of sacrificing the possibility of reforming the police, due to insisting on having the same never-ending debate which doesn't need the police murders to exist.

Sure.

Racism is not a "debate," it's an institution that oppresses millions of people. This is the struggle for Black liberation.

 

[Kyriakos]

Amazing, after 200 pages of point-blank proof that the police is behaving like a violent, uncontrollable gang, that is regularly threatening civil authorities that want to do even the minimal reforms, you're still asking, "maybe reform could be sought out!!". If there is any aggressor in here, it's the police. If anyone is making it a "white vs. black" (as if this is an issue from now!) issue, it's the police. If the civil war is going to be started, it'll be the settler colonial state firing the first shot, not anyone else. Shut the fudge up.

Maye try using your brain a bit, instead of posting trash. The point is that risking losing any chance of reform was the price of restarting the non-specific police murder discussion, aka the specific black vs white discussion.

Sure.

Racism is not a "debate," it's an institution that oppresses millions of people. This is the struggle for Black liberation.

I am sure this will be settled now, like it was before.

 

[Yeekim]

This is definitely getting rather surreal.

 

[Estebonrober]

Maye try using your brain a bit, instead of posting trash. The point is that risking losing any chance of reform was the price of restarting the non-specific police murder discussion, aka the specific black vs white discussion.



I am sure this will be settled now, like it was before.

So here is the deal. The progressive dems offered up a bill that had support in the house. It was promptly shut down. Then the GOP senate offered up a bill that was a huge huge nothing burger (hell in reality it reinforced the police state) and it was promptly shut down. The only way to keep the pressure on the ones who matter is to keep the pressure up. We must press. Backing off will just serve us more police state boots on the street. Trump has literally rolled out his ICE goons without permission into US cities. They are escalating and it will backfire on them. If anything we should press harder much harder, right now.

 

[Kyriakos]

So here is the deal. The progressive dems offered up a bill that had support in the house. It was promptly shut down. Then the GOP senate offered up a bill that was a huge huge nothing burger (hell in reality it reinforced the police state) and it was promptly shut down. The only way to keep the pressure on the ones who matter is to keep the pressure up. We must press. Backing off will just serve us more police state boots on the street. Trump has literally rolled out his ICE goons without permission into US cities. They are escalating and it will backfire on them. If anything we should press harder much harder, right now.

I obviously want this to happen as much as you do. I am commenting on the apparently very problematic strategy of turning this into a black vs white issue. Like it or not, the US black minority is roughly 20% (or less?), so it is not a good idea to frame this as a just black minority issue even if one is being practical (let alone that it's not just a black minority issue in the first place).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

When black Americans are being terrorized, abused and killed by them?

Are you for real?

Evidence doesn't support black Americans being specifically targeted this way...but it does support bad practices in general.

 

[Estebonrober]

I obviously want this to happen as much as you do. I am commenting on the apparently very problematic strategy of turning this into a black vs white issue. Like it or not, the US black minority is roughly 20% (or less?), so it is not a good idea to frame this as a just black minority issue even if one is being practical (let alone that it's not just a black minority issue in the first place).

I'm not sure if you noticed but this is supported by a majority of white americans under the age of 40. . . so its not really a black white issue at all?

 

[Estebonrober]

Evidence doesn't support black Americans being specifically targeted this way...but it does support bad practices in general.

Arrest, charging, conviction and incarceration rates all beg to differ. Land ownership, avg income, avg education all beg to differe (especially since racism ended over 50 years ago!). We have been over this dozens of times but you want not to understand because it does not fit your construct.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm not sure if you noticed but this is supported by a majority of white americans under the age of 40. . . so its not really a black white issue at all?

If you want it to be more, don't frame it as one, is all. Hopefully the reforms will still happen, despite the tactical error/"error".

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Evidence doesn't support black Americans being specifically targeted this way...but it does support bad practices in general.

I find your willingness to ignore issues unless and until they affect the majority; I. E whites, to be quite telling.

The black community is telling us of their own experiences and you reject them.

So is it malicious, intentional ignorance or just an ignorance born from an utter lack of curiousness or care about those that differ from you?

I have my suspicions that it's certainly not the latter, not at this point.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not sure if you noticed but this is supported by a majority of white americans under the age of 40. . . so its not really a black white issue at all?

It isn't, except insofar as it's what everybody is watching. People are looking at race, and then examining the various socio-economic indicators, and then realizing that race is a good proxy for the concern. Any type of bottom-up approach would be incredibly valuable, because if there's any difference in racial cohorts, starting at the bottom will nearly always catch whoever it is you're actually worried about based on biases