[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Estebonrober]

When it is clear the criminals are using the protesters as cover, is there no obligation on the protesters to remove that cover?

no

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Not necessarily. Non-violence works when there's is an implied credible threat of violence if it doesn't. IMHO, Malcolm X enabled MLK Jr.

Read the 1st and 2nd amendments together as a paragraph instead of separately. The right of assembly and the right to petition govt for grievences flows right of the people to bear arms.

Black people have been shot to death for holding toy guns. Don't give me this disengenuous answer, we both know the right to bear arms does not apply equally to various groups.

You seriously think a black man could walk around with an ar 15 and not get armed police trying to kill him?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"Look, there was a black owned business! If more of those lazy layabouts would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps the police wouldn't be killing them, so it's all their own fault!"

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Black people have been shot to death for holding toy guns. Don't give me this disengenuous answer, we both know the right to bear arms does not apply equally to various groups.

You seriously think a black man could walk around with an ar 15 and not get armed police trying to kill him?

I think you should reread that post.

 

[Ajidica]

"Look, there was a black owned business! If more of those lazy layabouts would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps the police wouldn't be killing them, so it's all their own fault!"

That is not what I said and frankly I'm a little insulted that you would imply that is what I meant.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That is not what I said and frankly I'm a little insulted that you would imply that is what I meant.

Oh.

What was your point then?

 

[Gorbles]

I was gettings texts about a curfew being in place starting 8 pm at around noon.

This wasn't the case for a number of people on social media, which can be Google'd and timestamped. Of course, this could be a carrier thing, but that's a rather specific reason for a severe failure in communication when the police were already instigating violence.

Here's some more evidence of that.

To your bit about the barbershop, I saw that on Twitter as well. That's when a lot of the activist groups started clocking that people who weren't protestors were starting fires and causing property damage. I recommend reading up on it, so that you don't blame the wrong group for others' acts.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

@Timsup2nothin I mean, I have been on protests with regards to the police (it was the St Paul police after Castille, not Minneapolis) and have posted repeatedly when the topic comes up about the importance of police reform and, when relevant, that Minneapolis Police have problems.

Did those protests accomplish anything?

Maybe you should have started some fires.

 

[zxcvbob]

Black people have been shot to death for holding toy guns. Don't give me this disengenuous answer, we both know the right to bear arms does not apply equally to various groups.

You seriously think a black man could walk around with an ar 15 and not get armed police trying to kill him?

You quoted that awfully quick! Before I cleaned up the wording, which I did almost immediately. Read it again

 

[Estebonrober]

Did those protests accomplish anything?

Maybe you should have started some fires.

Yea some of us have been openly and politely complaining about this to people in power for our entire lives. How much longer must we be peaceful. Frankly I'm not sure the US has the moral authority to stand together anymore. trump is still likely to win another election and the moral conviction of our nation that that represents is damning imo.

 

[caketastydelish]

One thing I'll add to all of this is it's not just that the cops murder people for no reason, but that they get away with almost every time. Even when there is video evidence that directly proves the contrary of their innocence, they still get away with it. At worst, they will lose their jobs and then be reassigned to a police department somewhere else. They have no reason not to change as long the law protects them from guilt almost no matter what.

 

[Ajidica]

Oh.

What was your point then?

Burning down local community owned businesses -and not predatory businesses like cheap liquor stores or payday loans- in no way "sticks it to the man" or has any meaningful impact on the situation beyond prolonging pointless violence. What symbolism is there in burning down a local barbershop? Somehow that will teach the MPD to not be terrible?
In the context of civil rights in the United States, when has burning buildings down

@Gorbles
https://mn.gov/governor/news/?id=1055-434117
Governor signed executive order establishing 8pm curfew on Friday. The post doesn't give the time, but there would have been at least 24 hours notice before the 8pm Saturday curfew came into effect.

The governor put out another executive order establishing a curfew Sunday from 8pm to 6 am. I don't know when it was put out, but as of me posting this, it will have been public for four hours 15 minutes before coming into effect.
https://mn.gov/governor/news/?id=1055-434117#/detail/appId/1/id/434219

To your bit about the barbershop, I saw that on Twitter as well. That's when a lot of the activist groups started clocking that people who weren't protestors were starting fires and causing property damage. I recommend reading up on it, so that you don't blame the wrong group for others' acts.

I've seen those posts too. A twitter picture is not proof one way or the other. All that can be said is that people, particularly during the night, are using the cover provided by the protesters to burn buildings in the community.
With regards to the curfew, what should the governor have done after a week of nightime violence that attracted worldwide attention? Do nothing?

 

[Estebonrober]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ion-tweet-a9541306.html?utm_source=reddit.com

“The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organisation,” he said in a series of tweets on Sunday blaming violent outbursts and rioting at police brutality protests across America over the weekend on the group and other “Radical Left” elements.

I mean the open complicity with extremist right wing groups is fudging hard to swallow here.

Has there been any real evidence of Antifa mobilizing ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Peaceful protester: You cops gotta stop randomly killing people.
Cops: Piss off.
Business owners: Back the badge!

Business owners: You cops gotta stop randomly killing people, these riots are bad for business.
Cops: Piss off.

Other cops: You gotta retire, or die in an accident, or somethin...Bob is the fifteenth cop to get shot in the face this week, they burnt the station to the ground, and we can't leave the cars on the street without them getting torched.
Bad cop: Okay bruh, guess you're right.

 

[Gorbles]

@Gorbles
https://mn.gov/governor/news/?id=1055-434117
Governor signed executive order establishing 8pm curfew on Friday. The post doesn't give the date, but there would have been at least 24 hours notice before the 8pm Saturday curfew came into effect.

I've seen those posts too. A twitter picture is not proof one way or the other. All that can be said is that people, particularly during the night, are using the cover provided by the protesters to burn buildings in the community.
With regards to the curfew, what should the governor have done after a week of nightime violence that attracted worldwide attention? Do nothing?

So let me get this straight. You're willing to believe that the implementation of an executive order with no time given was carried out flawlessly, but you're also unwilling to take direct timestamped tweets from people in the area (presumably as you are), in the crowds, on the streets?

I think the governor should've done something about the continued brutality meted out by the police, personally. The curfew does nothing to stop that. It's not an effective solution, which means I'm fully within rights to criticise the heck out of it. It treats innocent protestors the same as anyone else involved in the rioting, and does absolutely nothing to hold the abusive police officers to account.

I don't really see much point in continuing this. You obviously have bias, and I recommend you interrogate it otherwise I think you're going to keep blaming people innocent of destruction for said destruction of property. You're not even looking for evidence from the streets where this is happening. You're not asking the store owners how they feel, what solidarity they're expressing (which again, in specific cases, is Google-able).

I'd understand it if you were critical all-round, but you're not. You put your faith in certain things, but not in others, and it's decidedly on the side of the rule of law. That's not a viewpoint that at all helps the pain black communities are currently feeling in the wake of Floyd's death (and in the wake of so many others, too).

tl;dr: you're placing the destruction of property at the feet of people who didn't commit it, and you're not even holding other offenses accountable at the same time.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

2800 complaints resulting in 12 cops facing light discipline over a period of eight years pretty much negates any good reason to obey orders from the local head of state, frankly.

 

[Ajidica]

So let me get this straight. You're willing to believe that the implementation of an executive order with no time given was carried out flawlessly, but you're also unwilling to take direct timestamped tweets from people in the area (presumably as you are), in the crowds, on the streets?

The executive order announcing there would be a curfew from 8pm to 6am on Friday and Saturday was signed on Friday and widely publicized in local media.
The city of Minneapolis published on Friday an announcement of the curfew from 8pm to 6am on Friday and Saturday. I don't know when on Friday the announcement was made, but the knowledge that there would be a Saturday curfew had been out for over 24 hours.
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/gr...s2Kexa2KXarvHBFYfsjXJKQfdiORwCr2VWYGzq9dzvUUA

Local press was publishing information about the Saturday curfew by at least 6 am on Saturday itself.
https://www.startribune.com/suburbs...g-curfews-starting-at-8-p-m-friday/570873142/

 

[Gorbles]

The executive order announcing there would be a curfew from 8pm to 6am on Friday and Saturday was signed on Friday and widely publicized in local media.
The city of Minneapolis published on Friday an announcement of the curfew from 8pm to 6am on Friday and Saturday. I don't know when on Friday the announcement was made, but the knowledge that there would be a Saturday curfew had been out for over 24 hours.
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/gr...s2Kexa2KXarvHBFYfsjXJKQfdiORwCr2VWYGzq9dzvUUA

Local press was publishing information about the Saturday curfew by at least 6 am on Saturday itself.
https://www.startribune.com/suburbs...g-curfews-starting-at-8-p-m-friday/570873142/

So . . . none of that is at all a rebuttal of what I posted, assuming we're talking about the Friday night?

Like I said. Little point to this. I'll go back to posting what salient news links I can find, I try to keep to ones that have been sourced multiple times and have corroborating recorded evidence.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I genuinely don't get the significance. There is absolutely no reason to expect orders from the governor to be respectfully followed in this circumstance.

 

[Ajidica]

So . . . none of that is at all a rebuttal of what I posted, assuming we're talking about the Friday night?

Both days, but primarily Saturday.
Found a timestamped release that showed the Friday and Saturday curfews were announced by 4:15pm Friday, with Minneapolis issuing it earlier.
https://kttc.com/2020/05/29/minneap...curfew will be imposed,until 6 a.m. on Sunday.

I'll grant there was likely confusion over implementation of the curfew on Friday. However, by the start of curfew on Saturday, the knowledge about it being in place was public and widely reported by local media for over 24 hours.