[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Timsup2nothin]

Bottom line...

"We've been ignoring the cops killing people for years...we've been ignoring your complaints about it for years...we've ignored your lawfully conducted peaceful protests for years...I understand that's upsetting, but it's eight o'clock so go home now, I assure you your voice has been heard this time."

Is there any reason to expect that to be listened to? Is there any reason anyone should even consider listening to it?

 

[Lexicus]

@Lexicus that's unfair and you know it.

I don't really agree that it is, at least in the matter of breaking curfew and building barricades.

 

[red_elk]

Burning down local community owned businesses -and not predatory businesses like cheap liquor stores or payday loans- in no way "sticks it to the man" or has any meaningful impact on the situation beyond prolonging pointless violence. What symbolism is there in burning down a local barbershop? Somehow that will teach the MPD to not be terrible?
In the context of civil rights in the United States, when has burning buildings down

"You can't make a revolution wearing white gloves" (V. Lenin)

 

[JohannaK]

I think we can close this down because 'protesters should stop looters by stopping their protest' is the argument that won the thread.

 

[red_elk]

Spoiler :

 

[Manfred Belheim]

2800 complaints resulting in 12 cops facing light discipline over a period of eight years pretty much negates any good reason to obey orders from the local head of state, frankly.

How does that compare to the complaint/discipline rates of other police departments?

 

[caketastydelish]

I'm not necessarily against the use of violence in this case, but one thing I will say is that I disagree with "peaceful protests are meaningless no matter what" is I can point to Gandhi.

Not an expert on the Indian independence movement, but my understanding is the salt protest was successful in part because of international pressure. People were beaten just for making their own salt, it made international headlines, and the UK government was internationally hated for it. If there is that kind of international pressure, a peaceful protest (in that specific country) could potentially be good enough. As an American, I'm not blaming any other country for our own problems, but if you aren't American, realize you could still be in a position to make some tangible impact to change this. Asking your politicians for trade embargos and cancellations of alliances/agreements with the US until this is fixed could go a long way.

 

[zxcvbob]

Black people have been shot to death for holding toy guns...

John Crawford III.

 

[caketastydelish]

How does that compare to the complaint/discipline rates of other police departments?

You're missing the point. If this is roughly on par for average anywhere in America, that shows the problem is much bigger, not less.

 

[Joij21]

Antifa: Trump says group will be designated 'terrorist organisation'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52868295

Minnesota using 'intelligence support' from US military amid riots
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minnesota-intelligence-support-nsa-riots

 

[caketastydelish]

Are white supremacists groups that commit terrorism in the US designated as terrorist groups? (serious question)

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You're missing the point. If this is roughly on par for average anywhere in America, that shows the problem is much bigger, not less.

Does it? I would say that if it's much worse than other places (as in lots more complaints, or a much lower level of resulting disciplinary action) then it woud suggest there is a problem here. If everywhere is the same... does it tell you anything at all?

 

[Gorbles]

Does it? I would say that if it's much worse than other places (as in lots more complaints, or a much lower level of resulting disciplinary action) then it woud suggest there is a problem here. If everywhere is the same... does it tell you anything at all?

Have you paid attention to any of the unprovoked acts of police-instigated violence linked in this thread? It seems to me that by focusing on cited statistics that you haven't even taken the time to look up (or search through this thread for, when I posted about it with an article to source from), you're rather intentionally missing the point at this stage.

 

[JohannaK]

As an American, I'm not blaming any other country for our own problems, but if you aren't American, realize you could still be in a position to make some tangible impact to change this. Asking your politicians for trade embargos and cancellations of alliances/agreements with the US until this is fixed could go a long way.

The US is still the US. If my country doesnt care about me to hear me, it wont start if I ask them to turn against their overlord. They won't because these other governments will do the same to their citizens.

 

[Colon]

I think this article is pretty notable: https://www.economist.com/united-st...arked-by-george-floyds-death-are-still-raging
Not because it contains information you don't already know, but because of the slight suggestion police forces are tacitly working with far-right groups to make things worse. That would have been completely unthinkable a few years from a magazine like The Economist concerning the US.
The description of police behaviour in the opening paragraph is also that would have been more fitting of a country like Russia.

 

[bernie14]

Spoiler :

THANKS!! now I understand "whataboutism"

 

[red_elk]

The description of police behaviour in the opening paragraph is also that would have been more fitting of a country like Russia.

Except it happens in America. Reality sometimes makes its corrections in people's worldview.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Have you paid attention to any of the unprovoked acts of police-instigated violence linked in this thread? It seems to me that by focusing on cited statistics that you haven't even taken the time to look up (or search through this thread for, when I posted about it with an article to source from), you're rather intentionally missing the point at this stage.

I don't know why you're always trying to get me to talk about things other than what I'm talking about. The "2800 complaints and only 12 suspensions" thing is being talked about as if it has relevance in and of itself. I'm just saying that the numbers on their own don't really mean anything and surely need to be compared to other numbers. I mean police are generally fairly unpopular (more so in the US than other places probably) and will typically be a pain in the backside for anyone they have to deal with. It wouldn't remotely surprise me if they attract a great many spurious, or at least not actionable, complaints from people they've rubbed up the wrong way. So a large number of complaints and a low number of resulting actions doesn't, on its own, necessarily mean anything.

 

[Ajidica]

I think we can close this down because 'protesters should stop looters by stopping their protest' is the argument that won the thread.

Can you (the general you) can it with the edgy hot takes?

People on CFC and in the press have repeatedly noted that the burning and looting - especially over the last few days- seems to be isolated individuals unconnected with the protests. There have also been suggestions that neo Nazis are using this as cover to burn stuff down and try and spark their fetishised race war. In light of that, how should the Minneapolis city government and Minnesota state government respond to continued and increasingly wanton violence?

Or should I be posting hot takes saying JohannaK supports Nazi arsonists because he thinks the curfews were a bad idea?

 

[Gorbles]

I don't know why you're always trying to get me to talk about things other than what I'm talking about. The "2800 complaints and only 12 suspensions" thing is being talked about as if it has relevance in and of itself. I'm just saying that the numbers on their own don't really mean anything and surely need to be compared to other numbers. I mean police are generally fairly unpopular (more so in the US than other places probably) and will typically be a pain in the backside for anyone they have to deal with. It wouldn't remotely surprise me if they attract a great many spurious, or at least not actionable, complaints from people they've rubbed up the wrong way. So a large number of complaints and a low number of resulting actions doesn't, on its own, necessarily mean anything.

It's a good thing there's discussion in this thread that you could look for to answer your questions, then.