[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Joij21]

Never quote mod text, and if you have questions for them send a PM. Even here there are rules.

An RD thread is more stringently moderated. There is less tolerance for sliding off the topic, particularly in a trolling or flaming way.

It's sort of like a road construction zone...the same vehicle code applies, but fines may be doubled.

What does RD stand for?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What does RD stand for?

Red Diamond. It's a reference to how such threads were marked in some prehistoric time before they got all alphabetical about it. Like instead of RD it was an actual red diamond shape.

 

[rah]

Do you think the "good" protesters who are locking arms with the police are going to drive reforms in the police departments and wider criminal justice system?

I think there is a better chance of that then the looting having a similar effect.
I see the looting more ending in retaliation that will help no one.

 

[Ajidica]

@Ajidica this line of questioning applies to you too, in some ways. You have been part of the peaceful protests for how long? Is there any indication that they worked?

I don't see any reason to believe letting a handful people using the protests as cover to burn down local bookstores and community barbershops will work in getting systemic change at the MPD.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So let's stick with the peaceful protests that have been not working for a decade or more.

Is there anyone, anywhere, that thinks this sounds like a good plan?

The LAPD ran an organized crime operation out of the Rampart station for years. Complaints were endless. It was so commonly known that it was used as the plotline in books, movies, and television shows that were openly mocked with "I thought you were writing fiction?" It got cleaned up after the Rodney King riots because the city government woke up and smelled the reality that the populace now knew how to force the issue...and it wasn't by filing the same old complaints and staging the same old protests. If Rampart wasn't cleaned up it was very likely that Rampart Station would have been burned to the ground.

As long as the people who are actually paying the police to protect them and do not care what the police do to "the lesser people" believe that that will continue to work the police will never change. When those people are shown that the police behavior is actually putting them in more danger than they are being protected from the police are forced to change. It really is that simple.

 

[Birdjaguar]

What does RD stand for?

Red Diamond. It's a reference to how such threads were marked in some prehistoric time before they got all alphabetical about it. Like instead of RD it was an actual red diamond shape.

A decade ago the Off topic forum was looking for was to improve things and reduce spamming and trolling in threads. The Red Diamond was a designation that I proposed that would use a red diamond symbol at the front of the title to indicate that the thread would be moderated more strictly. The actual diamond has long since disappeared, but the designation stuck.

 

[Commodore]

I think there is a better chance of that then the looting having a similar effect.
I see the looting more ending in retaliation that will help no one.

This is where I remind you that our bid for independence from the British Empire started with rioting and looting. And when the colonies first tried, repeatedly, to peacefully ask for reforms to address their grievances they were flatly ignored.

 

[red_elk]

So let's stick with the peaceful protests that have been not working for a decade or more.

Is there anyone, anywhere, that thinks this sounds like a good plan?

"Go out, beat up cops and burn their cars" doesn't seem viable long term strategy either.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It does get peoples attention though when all other efforts to stop black people from being killed by police hasn't been effective.

 

[Commodore]

"Go out, beat up cops and burn their cars" doesn't seem viable long term strategy either.

Except we see that violent revolutions have a much higher rate of success than peaceful ones throughout the course of human history.

 

[Arwon]

Don't think anyone believes Russian agents are behind the violence. Spreading misinformation maybe, although there are plenty of others who might do that too.
White nationalists? Increasing racial tension, distracting from the protests, furthering their agenda of presenting black people negatively. Plenty of reasons they might.

That there are outsiders involved seems likely. No hard evidence of who they are has been produced yet but they certainly aren't doing it to help the locals whatever their agenda is.

I'm pretty sure the Brazilian fascist upthread who got banned was suggesting The Jews did it

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"Go out, beat up cops and burn their cars" doesn't seem viable long term strategy either.

I dunno man...I think if the cops start taking hard casualties the whole thing changes direction pdq. They love to talk about how dangerous their job is, when it really isn't. If all of a sudden it actually was I think that would wake some people up pretty hard.

 

[Arwon]

I don't see any reason to believe letting a handful people using the protests as cover to burn down local bookstores and community barbershops will work in getting systemic change at the MPD.

You're holding a large, angry, spontaneously formed group to way too high a standard here mate.

When civil unrest like this explodes in the face of suppression by an unjust system, unfortunately there's gonna be collateral damage as desperate people lash out. Don't let recalcitrant interests convince you that the collateral damage of revolt means the revolt is illegitimate.

 

[Estebonrober]

Theft and vandalism has drastically impacted profitability and discouraged investment. Those that exist are usually given tax breaks and such to encourage them.


the good protesters are the peaceful ones. the bad ones are those using the peaceful ones as cover to perform criminal activities.
Seems pretty clear to me. Most of the city leaders (and local ones) seem to agree.

You know this is disingenuous at best right? Chicago's south side is not a food desert due to violence.

 

[Estebonrober]

I think there is a better chance of that then the looting having a similar effect.
I see the looting more ending in retaliation that will help no one.

Retaliation is escalation and escalation might just be the name of the game soon and it certainly is for some already

 

[Commodore]

Revolutions yes. Because people who did revolutions wanted to replace current political system and knew very well what they want to achieve. I don't see this thing among protesters.
Agenda "go out and kill" will start civil war, not revolution. If you want limited reforms, better start with peaceful but massive protest and negotiate.

Again I'll refer to our own War of Independence. Initially the movement was far from clear on exactly what it wanted from the British. The goal of independence didn't become the solidified goal of the revolution until hostilities had already commenced.

My point being that while there may not be a clear focus now, one could certainly develop in the future.

I'll also reiterate that we tried to solve things through peaceful protest and negotiation with the British and all it got us was more repression. It is simply too easy to ignore peaceful protest. I'll also state that we've been protesting peacefully and trying to negotiate on this issue for years now with nothing to show for the effort. How long are we expected to keep beating our heads against that wall before you think it's okay for us to start doing what history shows us actually works?

 

[Arwon]

The police in many parts of the US are also clearly engaging in direct violence against peaceful people with confident impunity and have done for a long time.

That alone removes much of the utility of doctrinal non-violence, which relies on placing oppressors in difficult moral situations to persuasively force change

The question of whether to brutalise black people who are only passively resisting is not a difficult question for those security forces who do it routinely anyway. Especially when they can plausibly characterise anything as "violent" simply by initiating violence.

And that contested framing of even peaceful protest inflamed by repression as "violent" is usually enough to make it not morally challenging for a significant portion of elected officials, and a decent chunk of broader white TV-watching America.

Edit: also, non violent action includes occupying inconvenient space, such as roads, and plenty of people get mad when protesters do that, too. For many it is about inconvenience, not violence.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Cop murdering a guy in handcuffs + 1/3rd of the population laid off or furloughed = super ultra mega riots


Minneapolis kind of blew my mind when I read this:
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...-floyd-minneapolis-protests-coronavirus-risks

Of the 2,600 complaints filed with the Minneapolis’s civilian review board since it was established in 2012, just 12 led to disciplinary action, according to data compiled by the Communities United Against Police Brutality.

Thousands of complaints about police, and the largest penalty was a 40 hour suspension.

 

[red_elk]

Again I'll refer to our own War of Independence. Initially the movement was far from clear on exactly what it wanted from the British. The goal of independence didn't become the solidified goal of the revolution until hostilities had already commenced.

My point being that while there may not be a clear focus now, one could certainly develop in the future.

I'll also reiterate that we tried to solve things through peaceful protest and negotiation with the British and all it got us was more repression. It is simply too easy to ignore peaceful protest. I'll also state that we've been protesting peacefully and trying to negotiate on this issue for years now with nothing to show for the effort. How long are we expected to keep beating our heads against that wall before you think it's okay for us to start doing what history shows us actually works?

Ok I got your point. It's better for me not to discuss violent and revolutionary scenarios on public forum, much less encourage them.

 

[rah]

You know this is disingenuous at best right? Chicago's south side is not a food desert due to violence.

If that is what I said, i'd agree with you. But that's not what I said. I believe I said (and feel free to go back and look) was that it was due to theft and vandalism making it a sub optimal investment.