Get Out Of The Noble Rut

[pigswill]

Worker first, warrior up to size 2 then settler; I'd start settler on size 2 because you'll be working you rtwo best tiles to get settler, waiting to get to size 3 is an option if you farm the floodplain but I think you'll be better off with an earlier second city to start working extra resources, particularly horses or copper to start getting units out. You're likely to see barbs about 2400-2200bc so units out at the time will guard your improvements and pick up easy XP in the process.

Edit: quite a few forests around, its worth remembering with industrious that chopping gets you 30 hammers for wonders, 20 hammers for anything else so keep the forests for chopping wonders.
Does Stonehenge give Ramses obelisks or monuments? (Whichever it is they'll disappear with calendar.)

 

[Menes]

Suprised at the feedback this has had already!

The general consensus seems to be that Worker>Worker>Whatever is wrong, and that I should grow after the first Worker. The many explanations seem prudent enough, however, I feel I should explain why I always build Worker>Worker, misguided as it may be.

My first Worker will hook up a resource, my second worker will also hook up resources and improve tiles in the first city, whilst it is building Warrior(s) until growth to size two. When the city grows to size two, I start a Settler, and a Warrior and the second Worker begins roading to my second city site, whilst the first Worker chops. By the time the Settler has settled city number two, I already have my road link, plus a Worker there to improve things off the bat.

I do see the point people are making about having a city stuck at size 1, but I like to have improvements built ready for population to use, not improve as the population increases. This just seems right to me.

However, the point of this is to try new things, and get out of habits that may be bad, so I will go for one Worker, then allow growth, building Warriors for exploration and barb busting.

Also, can someone explain the best way of using inline images as opposed to thumbnails? I have no web space of my own to FTP to, so how should I go about it?

I haven't included 4000BC in the index since it's the second post, and is pretty obvious. I planned on filling in the index as the thread became larger...don't worry, 4000BC will be in there for completion's sake!

Ramesses is Industrious and Spiritual. That's a 50% reduction in wonder build times. Also, the UB is the Obelisk, giving +2 culture...given that I probably won't be going for an early religion, Mysticism is an early must. It gives me my UB, and there's the possibility of a 50% reduced cost Stonehenge, giving me a UB in every city I build...that's fat cross growth in five turns as opposed to the usual ten turns from a monument. We'll discuss this more after the first turnset.

However, it is now ten past midnight, and it's time for bed. I'm sure there will be more to read tomorrow. The first turns will be played when I get home, and I'll re-do the summary to reflect the Worker>Warrior strategy before playing.

 

[Nufuhsus]

Wow! This is double plus good, friend!

Thank you for this, Menes. I am still very green to all of this as this is my first *ever* Civ game (still no Warlords) and have just now decided to jump into the Nobel Rut from playing Settler Great_Plains maps to Nobel Continents (mostly because I was sick of the barb animals running away from my Warrior and I didn't like starting in the west on Nobel Great_Plains).

I have learned much from every post I have read here but most are for the higher levels. I am glad to see one more on my level.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

My first Worker will hook up a resource, my second worker will also hook up resources and improve tiles in the first city, whilst it is building Warrior(s) until growth to size two. When the city grows to size two, I start a Settler, and a Warrior and the second Worker begins roading to my second city site, whilst the first Worker chops. By the time the Settler has settled city number two, I already have my road link, plus a Worker there to improve things off the bat.

I do see the point people are making about having a city stuck at size 1, but I like to have improvements built ready for population to use, not improve as the population increases. This just seems right to me.

Two points.

#1 is that you may be overvaluing the road link (yes, you'll want to have it eventually, but do you need it NOW?)

#2 is that your failure to grow may be slowing you down. Here's a rough sketch - you could sit down and do the math, or try a couple variations to see what happens.

Let's assume for the moment that you are going to have Animal Husbandry researched in time to improve the cows after you improve the corn, just to have a steady baseline. Furthermore, lets compare Worker Worker Settler to Worker [grow] Worker Settler.

The first 15 turns are the same. The worker starts improving the corn - in the mean time the city is working a 3/1/0 tile. You are using that to build a worker, I'm using it to grow. Since the city has to work the unimproved tile for 4 turns (the farm is completed before the city works it on turn 5), your worker has a 4 x 4 headstart on me. Once the farm is improved, the city starts working the 6/1/0 corn. I need two more turns to grow, so at this point you are 4 x 4 + 2 x 7 ahead of me in terms of worker progress.

On the first turn after the farm was done, the worker moved to the forrest, and on the second he started improving the cows, which is another 5 turns, delta the usual off by one errors because the city works it after the improvement has finished. So at the point where I have grown, I have about 4 turns before the cows are ready. So I can stick the second citizen on a floodplain, and pick up an extra production per turn while waiting for the pasture to finish. Since I'm producing at 8 per turn at this point, I've cut your lead to 26 hammers. Once the pasture is ready, I switch to it. Now I've got a straight forward +4 production advantage over you, so I'll pull even with you in seven more turns, then blow you away.

Edit: minor corrections above

Assuming I've done all this correctly, I'm finishing the settler build before you do, and I've got some extra commerce in the bank, and you need four more turns to reach size two. The cost is what, that you finished the second worker a little bit sooner than I did? I'll take those odds.

Again, this is a sketch - I'll not be stunned by a fencepost error in my math. Try and find out is the right answer here, but don't let it spoil the start.

Edit:
If you prefer simpler math, imagine that we start exactly the same way, except that I switch to growth for the 4 turns immediately prior to the pasture being completed. During that time, you complete 28 hammers of progress on the worker. When I reach size two, I start training the Worker again, with the city working the pasture and the cows. The cows give me an extra +4 of production each turn, so I catch up with you 7 turns later, and blow past you from there. Worker + Settler is 160 hammers at normal speed, which completes about 20 turns after the corn is improved. If the pasture is ready 6 turns after the corn, then I'll be catching up 13turns after the corn, and will finish the settler three turns? early than you will. And you still have four turns of growth to finish after that.

The cost? You've finished the second worker two turns earlier than I have.

According to my spreadsheet, this simpler recipe is essentially equivalent to the more complicated one above - the worker and settler appear at the same time, but the complicated method squeezes out a little bit more commerce and surplus hammers.

 

[Menes]

You've convinced me that Worker>Warrior(s)>Settler is better for the initial city in this case, but the fact that I get a second Worker means I can improve the second city sooner.

We could try working out the math of this for ages, but my brain may melt...I'm more of an instinct player than a math player.

As I've said, I will go the Worker>Warrior>Settler route when I get home tonight...be interesting how different it "feels" for me to play that route.

 

[crashnation]

If your city grow slowly , settler need more time. -> slow expansion.
If your city grow slowly , Your developed tile become useless. -> wasting turn.

road link is not high priority at prince. Your food/happiness gap is not a problem in early stage. only copper,horse,stone require ASAP link.

 

[pigswill]

It's worth remembering that on prince you get more barbs arriving earlier than on noble so once you've got your second city established you should be prioritizing military over peaceful builds coz you'll need something more powerful than warriors for defence.

 

[cabert]

right, you don't need to connect the health ressource now : you settle on the river! + the corn is already "connected"

Alternative method : research hunting while building your first worker, then AH.
This will reduce the cost of animal husbandry and allow you to build a scout while growing. You will have AH before your worker anyway, and your scout will find horses for you

 

[Menes]

I'll summarise my goals for tonights play session.

Build order will be Worker>Warrior (until pop growth)>Settler>Warrior>Worker.

Research order will be Mysticism for the UB (Obelisk give +2 culture). Primarily this is for Stonehenge...if I build this (50% wonder production cost with Industrious), I will have my UB in every subsequent city for max early culture growth. Then AH to hook up Cows and (hopefully) reveal Horses for a second city site.

EDIT: Due to Cabert's post (below), I may swap Mysticism for Hunting...undecided at the moment.

Alternative method : research hunting while building your first worker, then AH.
This will reduce the cost of animal husbandry and allow you to build a scout while growing. You will have AH before your worker anyway, and your scout will find horses for you.

I will post a report at one of these points...

1. Settler is built but no Horses are obviously available.
2. Second city is founded near Horses.
3. Unforseen circumstances.

Wonder if I can sneak home early?

 

[Menes]

It's worth remembering that on prince you get more barbs arriving earlier than on noble so once you've got your second city established you should be prioritizing military over peaceful builds coz you'll need something more powerful than warriors for defence.

Good point, and will discuss that after the first turns are posted. We'll be weighing up the benefits of military builds, bearing in mind that Stonehenge would be very nice to have...but that's all for later.

It's also why Cabert's different angle appeals to me. Hunting will build Spears instead of Warriors, so I may save Mysticism for my third tech, swapping it for Hunting.

 

[cabert]

Good point, and will discuss that after the first turns are posted. We'll be weighing up the benefits of military builds, bearing in mind that Stonehenge would be very nice to have...but that's all for later.

It's also why Cabert's different angle appeals to me. Hunting will build Spears instead of Warriors, so I may save Mysticism for my third tech, swapping it for Hunting.

you also need bronze to build spears,
but hunting is on the path for archery

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

We could try working out the math of this for ages.

At higher levels the maths may matter, but not at Prince. Beating Prince is primarily about beginning to plan in broad strategic strokes. The maths are primarily tactical.

I only use math here to demonstrate that your instincts are counter factual. Once you have retrained your instincts, you can abandon the maths (I almost never use them, except in analysis) for a while.

Edit: there really ought to have been a nifty Michael Abrash quote here.

 

[cabert]

At higher levels the maths may matter, but not at Prince. Beating Prince is primarily about beginning to plan in broad strategic strokes. The maths are primarily tactical.

I only use math here to demonstrate that your instincts are counter factual. Once you have retrained your instincts, you can abandon the maths (I almost never use them, except in analysis) for a while.

this is so true!
- Noble = you can win by just avoiding the silliest move.
- Prince = you need to have a large scale planning
- Monarch = you need to use the map and your traits well
- Emperor = you need to use diplomacy to watch your steps/hinder the AIs
- and above (theory, since I can only survive on emperor, but cannot win : damn wife and kids), you need to focus more and more on the plan to leverage the meager advantages you can have and leave out more and more "side issues" such as useless buildings or "one more unit before engaging"

 

[voek]

Prob. settle in place for fresh water. Move warrior SW. Oh it's better to select the settler in the openingsscreenie, so you can see the blue circels and take those in account (or at least we can).

Like VoU said think about exploiting your traits. Spiritual suits for religion and/or warmongering for example. Industrious can get you some cheap wonders and cheap forges, you prob want Metal Casting fast.

Not to forget the UU and UB. Warchariot is excellent for early war and the UB screams for fast GPP points. Where are you going to use the GP's for?

Stonehenge nets monuments which is your UB, go figure...

Edit: many posted while I was writing, some info might be old. Haven't read about the 2 priest you can assign from the UB. A more important reason to build it. (or has this been changed in 2.08?)

 

[Menes]

4000BC - 2480BC

Things have not panned out as I had hoped. Advice has told me to move the Warrior SW before settling in place...

This makes me think about moving the Settler S, but I decide that the current spot is good enough, and the Gems can be utilised by another city down the line, so I found Thebes...

The hut gave me gold which is not to be sniffed at. Mysticism is started (7 turns), as is a Worker (15 turns). I'm working the Corn tile for maximum Worker build time.

In 3800BC, Ragnar of the Viking shows his hairy face...

He came from the SW as indicated by the world map (next post). In 3720BC, we get...

We immediately start Animal Husbandry (11 turns). In 3520BC, Buddhism is FIDAL. In 3400BC our Worker finishes and starts a Farm on the Corn. We start building a Warrior. I'm unsure how to best work the tiles here, so I leave it on the Corn for maximum growth, with a view to when growth happens, I can also work the Forested Plains Hill for 3 Hammers to speed up a Warrior. Because of this, I also decide to build 2 Warriors and grow to size 3 before starting a Settler.

In 3280BC we get Animal Husbandry. The Worker starts roading to the Cows. We start Mining (6 turns), with a view to going to Bronze Working. Not a ruddy Horse in sight anywhere, hence the urgent need for Bronze.

In 3160BC, we grow to size 2, and I start working the Forested Plains Hill. This will give me growth and a Warrior at the same time if my calculations serve me correct.

In 3040BC we get...

We start Bronze Working straight away (14 turns), although in hindsight, this may have been a mistake as now my Worker has nothing to do except build roads.

In 2920BC, I start building the Settler (9 turns) when Thebes grows to size 3. We're working the Corn, Cows and Forested Plains Hill.

The Settler is born, but I wait two extra turns so BW can come in to get a better idea of where the second city can go.

 

[Menes]

Here's a picture of the world as we know it.

I've marked where Ragnar came from, and also where a possible second city can go...it takes advantage of the Bronze and Clams.

I'll post more in a bit, I've been called to dinner!

 

[drkodos]

FYI: Next border expansion will put the copper inside your cultural boundaries, so settling the city is not mandatory to get that resource.

I would head south for my second city (closer to opponents for warring) or move west to the coast. I like the hill/river tile 8s 2E that picks up the gems and the sugar.

I like green tiles better than brown.

 

[eric_]

8s 2e? That's awfully far from the capital, no?

I'd say 5w 1s for the coast, gold, and all that dye.

Or possibly 5s (so four tiles between cities), which will grab you bananas, ivory, sugar, and gems, but lots of peaks.

 

[Menes]

Reet, dinner scoffed. Back to it.

No Horses in the near vicinty which sucked. I panicked a bit and headed for BW, not realising I'd be leaving the Worker with nothing to do...should have gone Pottery first.

I got a decent amount of cash from huts, but lost a Warrior to a Barb hut, and another to a Bear, so I only have the one I started with.

Currently, I'm researching Pottery, and building Stonehenge...I have good early production and 50% reduction in Wonder building costs, which is like have Marble or Stone hooked up. I'll probably replace the Warriors afterwards.

First off, I'd like some analysis of what I've done and suggestions on what to do next.

I've marked where I think the second city should go, but without Horses, an early rush is out of the question...I've missed Buddhism and Hinduism, so a religious quest is pretty much a no go area.

I want Stonehenge and no amount of cajoling will dissuade me from that!

 

[patagonia]

Clam/Bronze is a good site, but you don't actually need to rush there with your first settler as Thebes will have a 2nd border pop sooner than your 2nd city will have its first, bringing the bronze within your cultural borders regardless.

In terms of land grab, you'll be best off expanding initially towards the south and then back-filling the land to the north at a later date. There's a great commerce site on the coast 4W of Thebes that picks up gold, three dyes and a couple of floodplains for cottaging, which is worth considering since you're researching pottery now anyway. The overlap with Thebes means it can develop cottages for the capital ready for the switch to bureaucracy further down the line too.

A minor micro-management point: you've got mining researched and a grassland hill that you've roaded but not mined. That'd give 1F3H compared to 3H from the forested plains hill, which is slightly better production-wise. Strictly speaking, the roads you've built are "unneccessary" at this stage of the game, because your health cap is much higher than the happy cap (and the corn, being on the river, is automatically connected anyway). By not roading yet, you may also have got the cow pasture completed sooner, which will have helped as far as production's concerned.

You'll ultimately want to cottage the floodplains (unless you're running a specialist economy), but don't be afraid to farm them initially. A floodplains farm gives 4F1C, making it a better tile to work for settler/worker production than any of the hills available due to the extra commerce it contributes. Those may seem like wasted worker-turns, but it'll be a long time before Thebes is working all of those floodplains tiles and it's much less painful to cottage over a farm than to farm over a cottage.

Hopefully that was vaguely coherent and informative.