Give me 18, but not on Earth - new PBEM

[Nighthawk419]

I would prefer a random map also. I for one don't mind being a position where I know early on that I'm not going to "win."

I'm assuming we're allowed to really negotiate with each other beyond just the standard BTS diplomatic options. That being the case, being a 2nd tier power or a junior partner in an alliance can still be fun.

A game needs Polands and Mexicos and Syrias too (no offense to those countries). Not everyone can be the US or China.

tdy99 - thanks for joining, you are in the game! Feel free to select a leader if you so please.

And YES - this is a game with all humans (hopefully/maybe) so basically when it comes to diplomacy, anything and everything is open and allowed... except tech trading haha... simply because that tends to cause problems in multiplayer with humans, its too easy to develop large "tech teams" that tech up and then destroy the smaller powers to cut down on numbers for winning the game. No tech trading is pretty standard for PBEM games I think.

 

[Nighthawk419]

Hey I'm being entertained already LoL.
In my opinion a random map is best here, the developers of the map generator had to decide how it would function for the great population of Civvers alike, they knew there would be games like this. A bad start isn't really a bad start if you consider all that is available to us. It is up to you to scout the lands, make Friends or enemies, trade or purchase those things YOUR Civilization needs to thrive. If we place to heavy of an opinion of what you start with, you'll never find out what you could end up with

I am a creative player beyond the standard design, if there is something I need and I know who has it but wants something in return I do not have, I will bring in a 3rd party or a 4th, what ever it takes to create a viable trade.
When players grasp the equations and become Godlike Civilizations, they will fear players like me who will reach out and stand in front of the weak and protect them because I know they will have my back. Furthermore it isn't always a bullet or a blade, but instead it could be a Company or a Culture that redefines a region. A Player(s) able to use a pen (Diplomacy) have every bit the chance to "Stand the Test of Time"

Great post Eclipse... I consider myself much of the same. I am definitely only Noble, maybe Prince level, but I consider myself very good at adapting to my environment and situation to maximize my position and I'm not afraid to gather up the weaker players and try to make a stand against a superpower. I also love the idea of everyone missing out on some sort of resource and needing to make a trade to acquire it. Diplomacy is a very forgotten but useful skill in this game when it comes to other humans. Just from the setting up of this game, I already can tell there will be quite a few players thinking outside the box, which I'm very much looking forward to!

 

[Nighthawk419]

When practising my model and again with Tectonics I didn't see anyway to stop that. Buying a tech will cost 60+ and if a neighbor is weak in resources when starting he may go for troops to take out a neighbor after 10 turns . Tectonics works too just it can be a bit more strange in land shapes. I used 550 for advanced start and 500. They both were adequate to get going.
Mysticism costs 75
Polytheism costs 150
Meditation costs 120

Couple points here:

1) I am going to stick with random map on techtonics. What you just said "a bit more strange in land shapes" is totally WHY I want to do techtonics. Some of the other maps can be a bit predictable - Big and Small for example, you can find out whether you are on the "big" or the "small" and then you KNOW there is the other continent somewhere and probably some islands. Techtonics is truly the most "random" of all the map generators, in that you could end up with anything and will never know whether there is another continent out there, or 3 islands, or what. You could end up with long skinny archipelago masses or a big circle continent... I have played more than a couple techtonics games and every single map is truly different. For example in my current game, the entire top 30% of the northern hemisphere is open water... the land masses got squeezed together into the central and bottom part of the map, with "the new world" areas essentially being little thumbs of land sticking out of antarctica... definitely led to a different dynamic than the game before, and it was tough to find the new world because no one thought to look towards the poles to find them! The true randomness/unpredictability of techtonics is why I went with it... no one will have a clue what the world looks like!

2) Yes, you can buy techs (including religious) with your advanced start, however as mentioned, it takes a nice chunk of points and will put you behind in other areas too. There is definitely the potential for an early rush, but all I can say to that is - be prepared and make concessions if need be!

I have no idea what happens if 2 people both buy meditation, for example, who would get Buddhism? My guess is that the person first on the turn order would get it, but I'm not positive... something to remember when strategizing when I come out with the turn order! Buying a religious tech is a risk in its own right, but especially in this game!

 

[Nighthawk419]

Well, 18 does sound a nice round number - and how often is that going to happen again ?

And we could be fleshing out the game now, and not stop others joining.

Obviously, the later they join the less input they get if it's already pretty much decided - however that happens.

Are we allowed to buy techs with the starting cash ? including religious techs ?

Also, as there is nothing in the game to stop two people having the same leaders and tribes, are we allowing this ?

I planned on 18 simply because thats the non-modded maximum players allowed on a huge map. We might have 16 currently (I need to talk to Calanthian) and I might be fine with that... there will be a status update coming shortly from me!

And no - everyone must have a different leader&civ combo, no duplicates! If the leader you want is chosen, the tiebreaker will be determined based on skill level, lower levels get first priority.

 

[bathsheba666]

I have no idea what happens if 2 people both buy meditation, for example, who would get Buddhism? My guess is that the person first on the turn order would get it, but I'm not positive... something to remember when strategizing when I come out with the turn order! Buying a religious tech is a risk in its own right, but especially in this game!

I understand that, for example if 5 people buy Meditation, then at the end of the first turn one of them is selected at random to have started Buddhism, and the other 4 are SOL.

I will choose my leader after everyone else is done.

 

[Nighthawk419]

Game Status Update as of Thurs, January 26, 2012

My goal all along has been to get 18 human players, no AI's, for this massively long game. However, I have also said all along that if we are unable to get 18 players and get close, I would be fine with that.

We currently have 15 players! The stream of new players joining has slowed to a trickle and I don't think any of us want to wait days upon days trying to find those last 3 players, especially considering I have advertised this game on the main multiplayer forum as well as the Civ IV general discussions forum. I do plan on contacting Calanthian though, since he seemed interested but was holding out just in case we needed a map (which we dont) so we might have 16.

Therefore, I am officially starting the 30 Hours to Launch Countdown!

This means I am launching this game sometime tomorrow night, Friday Jan 27, 2012 (EST) and the turns will begin rolling. What does this mean?

1) Any new players who want to join still have a chance - I will accept any new entrants through the official launch of the game (which will be announced). If we have not filled all 18 spots by launch, the remaining spaces will be filled with Random leader Prince level AI's.

2) Anyone who is signed up for the game - this is your last chance to select or change your leader if you so choose. If you have not informed me of your choice, your leader will be chosen at random. Remember, priority for leaders goes to the lower skill levels.

3) Any final debates or concerns about settings, air them now! I am still currently going with a huge Techtonics map 70% water, and all the settings as originally posted as it seems the majority is ok with it and there hasn't been strong opposition to much.

4) I will be preparing the turn order based on time availability slots and location... I already have a nice spreadsheet in my mind that I need to prepare which will help facilitate this. I will be working on that today during my lunchbreak and will post on here for public comment as soon as its available.

5) Remember - turnsets will take a while to get back to you, and I fully expect the first turnset may take even longer than expected. This is why I am going with a weekend launch. The first turn you will have to deal with your advanced start points, essentially doing 10-15 turns all at once. I am sure people will want to take their time (I know I'm going to) so I would encourage everyone to enjoy their first turn and take their time getting the basis of their empire started. Expecting things will take longer than normal for the first turnset, I think a Friday night start is good so that everyone can take their time (since weekends have weird schedules anyway) and hopefully we will get going on round 2 by Monday, just in time for a full week to see how things pan out with timing.

6) If anyone in the USA would like to exchange phone numbers with me, feel free to drop them in a PM to me. We will be fiddling around and getting used to PBEMtracker at the start and I believe it should alert everyone when its your turn, but I also plan on being a pest to everyone as much as I can to keep the game moving. This means if its your turn and you don't take it within a reasonable amount of time, i will be PMing you, emailing you, calling you out in public on this thread and if I have your number...calling you! I am the "turn police", don't make me take our my nightstick!

7) Last reminder - roleplaying is not required for this game, however roleplaying is encouraged. Not only does it bring a nice flavor to the game, but with so many people, there will be literally days between your turns. Doing some roleplaying and story telling on this thread will help keep everyone entertained while they wait for another turn and will help us all to keep interested and have the passion to keep this game alive. Feel free to write something up about your start or anything else you can think of - the bounds of roleplaying are limitless!

In addition to being the turn police, yours truly will be posting stories about the fabled Native American empire, AND posting general world stories as the overall game narrator! I will be contacting all of your privately throughout the game to get information for the purposes of narration and world stories. While you don't need to share your biggest private state secrets, please don't be afraid to share information with me to give the game color and keep everyone informed where we are at! I am only a weak Noble-level player, there's really not much I can do with the info! Also, anyone who plays Civ regularly knows that the scoreboard doesn't always mean much - you can acheive one of the victory conditions with a low score! My narrations will keep everyone informed as to availability of victory conditions even for the... "less cultured" empires!


I think that's all I had for now - if there is anything I am forgetting please remind me. I would like to thank everyone again for their interest and for signing up on PBEMtracker! We are close to launch and the beginnings of what will hopefully be a truly epic game!

 

[D!CK_VII]

Personally, I think the best handicap I can think of is that we just play at the highest difficulty level we are comfortably playing at. For some, it's Immortal, others it's Noble. Ofcourse I'm assuming you have already thought of this Nighthawk, but I really think it's best to just have a random map. That way, you can only blame the random map generator for your bad start.

Oh and a question out of curiousity: Why advanced start?

this may cause a problem w/ advanced start. people on different levels may get a different starting amount

 

[D!CK_VII]

if we are gonna start short then dump the AI

 

[Nighthawk419]

if we are gonna start short then dump the AI

Whats your reasoning?

 

[tdy99]

2 questions:

Does the amount of gold we start with for advanced start depend on difficulty level?

Also, when you say cities can convert back to their owner after being conquered, is that just the normal culture flipping mechanism at work or is it some other rule that's in effect?

 

[Nighthawk419]

Update for turn order!

I took a shot at a turn order - surprisingly this doesnt "follow the sun" nearly at all, but using the times everyone mentioned I managed to create a spreadsheet that pretty clearly shows a path we can follow. I originally had mentioned doing 1 turnset every 2 days, but with this many players thats pretty much impossible without falling off track. So I set this up assuming 1 turnset every 3 days, basically 5 players doing a turn per day. This allows fairly large 4 hour "blocks" of time where if everyone stays on track, can be very consistent and smooth. The preliminary outline is below, please review and any thoughts you have are appreciated!

Of course I will be setting up the game and be the initial turn on Friday night, so according to this D!CK VII would go after me first thing Saturday morning. Again - the first turnset might take longer as we all take our time doing the advanced start, but following this pattern we should quickly slip into a steady rotation.

Questions, comments, thoughts, all are welcome!


Turn Order - Preliminary

Note: all times given are adjusted to GMT. Times listed are large "blocks" of time you mentioned you were available and if everyone manages to take a turn within their "block" we should flow nicely. When adjusting to your own calendar and schedule, you will need to adjust the times listed from GMT to your local time.

Day 1:
1) chasbolt (local: GMT -5) - GMT 1000-1500
2) Michkov (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1300-1900
3) bjarkekr (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1700-2100
4) Majic (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1900-0100
5) Phisportsfan (local: GMT -8) - GMT 2400-0400
Day 2:
6) rd13 (local: GMT +2) - GMT 1200-1500 (weekends) GMT 1500-1700 (weekdays)
7) themdg (local: GMT -7) - GMT 1700-2100
8) Bathsheba666 (local: GMT) - GMT 2000-0100
9) Ormylar (local: GMT -6) - GMT 2200-0200
10) Nighthawk419 (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2400-0400
Day 3:
11) D!CK VII (local: GMT -5) - GMT 1300-1900
12) Espirito (local: GMT) - GMT 1800-2300
13) ParadigmShifter (local: GMT) - GMT 2000-0100
14) tdy99 (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2200-0300
15) Eclipse (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2400-0400

 

[Nighthawk419]

2 questions:

Does the amount of gold we start with for advanced start depend on difficulty level?

Also, when you say cities can convert back to their owner after being conquered, is that just the normal culture flipping mechanism at work or is it some other rule that's in effect?

Difficulty level will be set at standard Noble for everyone - all difficulty levels mentioned were simply to get a gauge of how "good" everyone is. You actually can't adjust the difficulty level for humans as far as I'm aware. Either way, it doesn't matter - advanced start gold will be the same for all and there won't be any in-game adjustments by me for difficulty level.

It's basically the normal culture flipping mechanism. For example if I invade one of your cities at the core of your empire and surrounded by 3 of your legendary cities, the culture may actually push me out and force it to flip back to you on its own. Hence, it may be better to burn certain cities

That being said, I believe the mechanics of the game have rules such that if I have 10 military units inside a city, its cant culturally flip no matter what as long as those units are garrisoned there. So theoretically in my example I could capture your city and leave 10 units there and it would stay mine... just completely surrounded in your culture and unable to feed itself. That's just what I read - I havent actually dealt with it in the game to confirm though... I don't usually have 10 units to spare to leave in a newly captured city!

 

[tdy99]

Difficulty level will be set at standard Noble for everyone - all difficulty levels mentioned were simply to get a gauge of how "good" everyone is. You actually can't adjust the difficulty level for humans as far as I'm aware. Either way, it doesn't matter - advanced start gold will be the same for all and there won't be any in-game adjustments by me for difficulty level.

It's basically the normal culture flipping mechanism. For example if I invade one of your cities at the core of your empire and surrounded by 3 of your legendary cities, the culture may actually push me out and force it to flip back to you on its own. Hence, it may be better to burn certain cities

That being said, I believe the mechanics of the game have rules such that if I have 10 military units inside a city, its cant culturally flip no matter what as long as those units are garrisoned there. So theoretically in my example I could capture your city and leave 10 units there and it would stay mine... just completely surrounded in your culture and unable to feed itself. That's just what I read - I havent actually dealt with it in the game to confirm though... I don't usually have 10 units to spare to leave in a newly captured city!

That makes sense. I've never played a PBEM before so I guess I still have a lot of basic questions. For instance, what's to stop someone from going into world builder on their turn to look at the whole map? What's to stop people from reloading on random events to get a better outcome?

 

[bathsheba666]

Turn Order - Preliminary

Note: all times given are adjusted to GMT. Times listed are large "blocks" of time you mentioned you were available and if everyone manages to take a turn within their "block" we should flow nicely. When adjusting to your own calendar and schedule, you will need to adjust the times listed from GMT to your local time.

Day 1:
1) chasbolt (local: GMT -5) - GMT 1000-1500
2) Michkov (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1300-1900
3) bjarkekr (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1700-2100
4) Majic (local: GMT +1) - GMT 1900-0100
5) Phisportsfan (local: GMT -8) - GMT 2400-0400
Day 2:
6) rd13 (local: GMT +2) - GMT 1200-1500 (weekends) GMT 1500-1700 (weekdays)
7) themdg (local: GMT -7) - GMT 1700-2100
8) Bathsheba666 (local: GMT) - GMT 2000-0100
9) Ormylar (local: GMT -6) - GMT 2200-0200
10) Nighthawk419 (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2400-0400
Day 3:
11) D!CK VII (local: GMT -5) - GMT 1300-1900
12) Espirito (local: GMT) - GMT 1800-2300
13) ParadigmShifter (local: GMT) - GMT 2000-0100
14) tdy99 (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2200-0300
15) Eclipse (local: GMT -5) - GMT 2400-0400

I remember doing this for Chi, and it was a complete pain, so props for your efforts.

One thing I notice is that, on all three days, you have quite a large time gap after 0400gmt, of 6, 9, or 11 hours, meaning you have the 5 players spread over somewhere between 13 and 18 hours, so they need to hit a 3 hour slot, and most are overlapped.

It occurs to me that if you have players who can 'guarantee' to hit that 0400-1200 gmt morning slot ( - like me, for instance - ) then that eases the pressure on the later slots. If you can find two others for the 'other' two days that raises the probability that this goes even more smoothly.

 

[Nighthawk419]

That makes sense. I've never played a PBEM before so I guess I still have a lot of basic questions. For instance, what's to stop someone from going into world builder on their turn to look at the whole map? What's to stop people from reloading on random events to get a better outcome?

There is an option to click when you set up the game... I forget what its called but its something about the "random seed on reload"... when you select (or de-select, I'd have to load the game and look, I forget) this option, reloading the game won't change the random number generator so you cna reload all you want and you'll get the same result!

As for the worldbuilder - I really don't know the answer to that because I've never once opened up worldbuilder. To be honest, if that is possible, I'm pretty much relying on everyone's own morality to NOT do such a thing. Not only does it spoil the fun of discovering the map on your own, but its also a form of cheating. No one would ever know, but all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say that i'd hope everyone has the testicular fortitude to play the game as its meant to be played and not do things like that. Victory just won't taste as sweet to win that way! Or even if you have no plans on winning (like me!)... the game just isn't as fun when you do things like that!

Any PBEM questions you have at any point, feel free to ask, everyone learns sometime!

 

[Nighthawk419]

I remember doing this for Chi, and it was a complete pain, so props for your efforts.

One thing I notice is that, on all three days, you have quite a large time gap after 0400gmt, of 6, 9, or 11 hours, meaning you have the 5 players spread over somewhere between 13 and 18 hours, so they need to hit a 3 hour slot, and most are overlapped.

It occurs to me that if you have players who can guarantee to hit that 0400-1200 gmt morning slot - like me, for instance, then that eases the pressure on the later slots. If you can find two others for the 'other' two days that raises the probability that this goes more smoothly.

I agree - there is definitely a gap, those being the times when generally everyone is sleeping! We as a group actually are only in two places - Western Europe and the USA, so there is generally a block of time when we are all unavailable, I considered that the break between days.

And yes, there is overlap - this is purposeful. Some people are limited to a 4 hour space and some up to 8 hours or more. I tried to do my best to take everyone's most solid "chunk" and put them in a logical order. The overlap is unavoidable, but also it allows for some flexibility... for example: the theory is that as your timeblock is nearing its end, someone elses is starting up, so when you send the turn, they are pretty much waiting for it to come. There isnt a delay where you send but then the next person's time block hasn't started yet.

I understand what you're saying about your early morning time slot. I generally focused on the larger chunks of time, since I figured this was when people would be most consistently available and ready to play. There are a couple other people with morning options, I just avoided them because they are smaller 1-2 hour blocks. But if you can guarantee me that you'll get a turn in that hour pretty reliably every single day, I might be able to make some adjustments to spread it out more...

Let me play with it and I'll provide another option. I have a couple meetings here, but once I'm finished I'll post "Option 2"!

 

[Ormylar]

The time slot you set up for me works well surprisingly. Wednesdays will be tough at the time period, but otherwise, it works for me.

I'm assuming the webpage on pbem.com will update when you start and have an upload button or something for us to use?

 

[bathsheba666]

I agree - there is definitely a gap, those being the times when generally everyone is sleeping! We as a group actually are only in two places - Western Europe and the USA, so there is generally a block of time when we are all unavailable, I considered that the break between days.

And yes, there is overlap - this is purposeful. Some people are limited to a 4 hour space and some up to 8 hours or more. I tried to do my best to take everyone's most solid "chunk" and put them in a logical order. The overlap is unavoidable, but also it allows for some flexibility... for example: the theory is that as your timeblock is nearing its end, someone elses is starting up, so when you send the turn, they are pretty much waiting for it to come. There isnt a delay where you send but then the next person's time block hasn't started yet.

I understand what you're saying about your early morning time slot. I generally focused on the larger chunks of time, since I figured this was when people would be most consistently available and ready to play. There are a couple other people with morning options, I just avoided them because they are smaller 1-2 hour blocks. But if you can guarantee me that you'll get a turn in that hour pretty reliably every single day, I might be able to make some adjustments to spread it out more...

Let me play with it and I'll provide another option. I have a couple meetings here, but once I'm finished I'll post "Option 2"!

Basically, anyone in gmt/+1/+2 who can play in their morning would naturally hit this slot. Keyword of course is guarantee...
And if it is only expected to hit this every three days, then that is not as much of an ask as it would be for daily turnaround.

Not that I'm trying to volunteer people..... but I have memories of Bjarkekr, Esperito, and Paradigm Shifter playing the occasional morning turns for Chi or Eurozone,
but they would need to confirm their availability, as your comment about consistency holds..

 

[D!CK_VII]

Whats your reasoning?

they will be easy to run over and give someone an advantage

 

[Nighthawk419]

they will be easy to run over and give someone an advantage

Good point. I was thinking Prince level AI's would be enough of a challenge, but really all that would do is give an advantage to you Immortal level players... you;d run them over easily while us Noble players would be stuck in a pointless war.

Agreed - 15 or 16 players (or more) and a huge map, no AI's. Thats plenty! Decision made - thanks for convincing me Dick!