Give Peace A Chance!

[LordRahl]

[MANDATORY E-SARCASM TAG] Oh, yeah, and Objectivism is about shooting people who disagree with you. [/MANDATORY E-SARCASM TAG]

Objectivism advocates use of force to defend your rights, and when somebody uses force against you. Provide a direct Ayn Rand's quote supporting what you just said (like I did with the human haters), or admit you're a liar...

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I don't disagree with you other than the fact that cooperation is not always an option evern if it is the objective. The , Us vs Them mindset is impossible to abolish. You are always going to side with your family

Its possible to choose how big your family is. It can be 6 billion strong.

 

[Hygro]

I don't disagree with you other than the fact that cooperation is not always an option evern if it is the objective. The , Us vs Them mindset is impossible to abolish. You are always going to side with your family , country or your pocket against an enemy. Unless you are stronger. Or he who is stronger cooperates. But not always there is a stronger one and a weak opposing sides , so cooperation is effective solution even under a selfish but inevitable Us vs Them mindset. ( If we assume the stronger one doesn't want to cooperate because it is of no use to him)

In the prisoner's dillema example the situation is different . It is a game that is played in different terms , as both sides are equal. And as a neutral i would rather Cooperation (pursuing peace) rather than destruction. But again , both players choose to cooperate as the best measure in an us vs them scenario . If one side can't cooperate the other side can't either . So while cooperation is the best solution not in the cosmopolitan spaceship earth pt of view of 'we all but just for both sides , like the prisoner dillema they choose not to.

However i think we are making a mistake. Cooperation - Peace may be the best solution for less blood from both sides and in an Us vs Them mindset still be prefered for that reason. Other means other than cooperation may be more expensive in Blood but more advantageous.

I've lost too much mental faculty (and therefore writing quality) from staying awake last night, so I think I probably mostly agree with you. But as Bozo Erection said, your family can be 6 billion strong. While and us vs. them mindset cannot be abolished, i is a psycological profile that does not affect everyone to the same degree. The Christian right and neoconservatives find mutual whatnot becauase many exhibit such a mindset stronger than almost the entire moderate and leftwing of the nation. Not everyone sees enemies.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not everyone sees enemies.

Instead of enemies, I try (struggle) to see merely people that I havent been able to communicate with yet, and vica versa. Enemies destroy one another. Neither I nor my 'enemy' want to be destroyed. Right there is common ground that can be built upon. If we choose to.

 

[scy12]

Its possible to choose how big your family is. It can be 6 billion strong.

You do not choose your enemies they choose you. Unless you have no reason to have fear of enemies. Again even if you don't have enemies ,they do . Many decisions you can think of , are conflicting the interests of some of those 6 billion people. Practically you can be better at this than today's leaders but There isn't a solution to every problem .

 

[Hygro]

All classfications are arbitrary. Its good to keep that in mind. It's also good to keep in mind that classifications have advanced humanity greatly. Knowing those two things, its not much of a logic leap to come to the perspective that there are better classifications to invent or discovery or emply than the ones most commonly used.

 

[Hygro]

You do not choose your enemies they choose you. Unless you have no reason to have fear of enemies. Again even if you don't have enemies ,they do . Many decisions you can think of , are conflicting the interests of some of those 6 billion people. Practically you can be better at this than today's leaders but There isn't a solution to every problem .

So my enemies chose me. But how did they chose me if they can't choose their enemies?

Oh, and I think you said that (in context of prisoners dilemma) that one side cannot cooporate without the other side's cooperation. That's not the case, its just that the conned cooperator gets trounced, but nevertheless his cooperation produces more overall value than the defensive protective defection. Unles you are talking semantics, in which case yes, you cannot literally cooperate with someone who wont cooperate, but you can still play that same hand.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You do not choose your enemies they choose you.

That would mean that we're passive, and at the mercy of people who dont like us. Why should a guy in Kabul have control of your mind, and your ethics?

Unless you have no reason to have fear of enemies. Again even if you don't have enemies ,they do .

Let me not run away from the word 'enemy', its as good a word as any other. Ok, yes, I have enemies, in a real sense, Im the enemy of my enemy. Instead of trying to destroy one another (which is just one option), why not try and rewind, and find out what were the root causes of us becoming 'enemies' and then seeing if we can defuse the situation enough so that we can both get a chance to live?

Many decisions you can think of , are conflicting the interests of some of those 6 billion people. Practically you can be better at this than today's leaders but There isn't a solution to every problem .

No but there are some solutions to some problems. But we'll never know what those are, if all we say is "Oh well, we're enemies, lets do it" (BANG BANG)

 

[scy12]

I've lost too much mental faculty (and therefore writing quality) from staying awake last night, so I think I probably mostly agree with you. But as Bozo Erection said, your family can be 6 billion strong. While and us vs. them mindset cannot be abolished, i is a psycological profile that does not affect everyone to the same degree. The Christian right and neoconservatives find mutual whatnot becauase many exhibit such a mindset stronger than almost the entire moderate and leftwing of the nation. Not everyone sees enemies.

Certainly i agree. Some have the luxury to choose to make more enemies than they have to. But i don't believe it is paranoia that sees imaginary enemies rather it is pure logical " Realpolitic" behavior that creates real enemies to fight against and then hides itself under concealed paranoia .

 

[scy12]

That would mean that we're passive, and at the mercy of people who dont like us. Why should a guy in Kabul have control of your mind, and your ethics?

Let me not run away from the word 'enemy', its as good a word as any other. Ok, yes, I have enemies, in a real sense, Im the enemy of my enemy. Instead of trying to destroy one another (which is just one option), why not try and rewind, and find out what were the root causes of us becoming 'enemies' and then seeing if we can defuse the situation enough so that we can both get a chance to live?


No but there are some solutions to some problems. But we'll never know what those are, if all we say is "Oh well, we're enemies, lets do it" (BANG BANG)

That would mean that we're passive, and at the mercy of people who dont like us. Why should a guy in Kabul have control of your mind, and your ethics?

A guy in Kabul ? Any enemy is an enemy
Because he is at a position to cause harm to Myself , my living conditions or family. Cooperation is just another way to "Fight" with your enemies and possibly the best one. I don't condemn it , i approve it . But it isn't always an option even if because we believe it is the better outcome must be the objective.


If there is no person that is in a position to be your enemy then you are free .

Let me not run away from the word 'enemy', its as good a word as any other. Ok, yes, I have enemies, in a real sense, Im the enemy of my enemy. Instead of trying to destroy one another (which is just one option), why not try and rewind, and find out what were the root causes of us becoming 'enemies' and then seeing if we can defuse the situation enough so that we can both get a chance to live?

Be my guest . Do whatever it is in your power but don't overestimate that power.

Many decisions you can think of , are conflicting the interests of some of those 6 billion people. Practically you can be better at this than today's leaders but There isn't a solution to every problem .

No but there are some solutions to some problems. But we'll never know what those are, if all we say is "Oh well, we're enemies, lets do it" (BANG BANG)

There are more than one solution to a problem depending at what you would prefer and what is viable. Bang Bang is usually one of them.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

A guy in Kabul ? Any enemy is an enemy
Because he is at a position to cause harm to Myself , my living conditions or family.

I allowed some guys in Kabul to do me great harm, by letting them fill my psyche with their toxic poisonous hate. Thats a mistake I wont make again. Im not passive anymore, waiting to see if some strangers are going to wake up tommorow and change me.

Be my guest . Do whatever it is in your power but don't overestimate that power.

I cant overestimate the power I have to control my own mind. They can only underestimate that power.

There are more than one solution to a problem depending at what you would prefer and what is viable. Bang Bang is usually one of them.

Its the easiest. No thinking required, just a tiny little movement of one index finger.

 

[scy12]

So my enemies chose me. But how did they chose me if they can't choose their enemies?

Oh, and I think you said that (in context of prisoners dilemma) that one side cannot cooporate without the other side's cooperation. That's not the case, its just that the conned cooperator gets trounced, but nevertheless his cooperation produces more overall value than the defensive protective defection. Unles you are talking semantics, in which case yes, you cannot literally cooperate with someone who wont cooperate, but you can still play that same hand.

So my enemies chose me. But how did they chose me if they can't choose their enemies?

Apparently they choose you because there is something for them to gain , if they made that choice. If you decide to have a family of 6 billion people and don't think in a us vs them mindset , then you choose not to have enemies but you are in bad luck if other people didn't think the same of you. Just like the prisoner's dillema . Maybe it would be better if all 6 billion choose to cooperate ? The chance of that happening is incredibly lower than the prisoner's dillemma even if both events describe the same behavior. Ultimately we enter a circle. While the two prisoners could cooperate it is different while apllied for 6 billion people. You can try however.

 

[ParkCungHee]

A guy says, "Give peace a chance" and people get mad at him

Simple solutions to complex problems don't piss people off enough.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Simple solutions to complex problems don't piss people off enough.

IIRC correctly, youre a Christian. Have you read the New Testament? Whats a simpler solution than 'Believe in me'? Im not saying thats bad, if it works for you, fine. But why accept one simple solution, and then reject others? The best solutions are often the simplest.

 

[scy12]

I allowed some guys in Kabul to do me great harm, by letting them fill my psyche with their toxic poisonous hate. Thats a mistake I wont make again. Im not passive anymore, waiting to see if some strangers are going to wake up tommorow and change me.
I cant overestimate the power I have to control my own mind. They can only underestimate that power.

Its the easiest. No thinking required, just a tiny little movement of one index finger.

I allowed some guys in Kabul to do me great harm, by letting them fill my psyche with their toxic poisonous hate. Thats a mistake I wont make again. Im not passive anymore, waiting to see if some strangers are going to wake up tommorow and change me.

If the guys in Kabul are imaginary enemies then they shouldn't be brought in the discussion as an example.

I cant overestimate the power I have to control my own mind. They can only underestimate that power.

Yes and No. Yes people are underestimating their mind and create imaginary enemies and imaginary thorns that don't allow them to bring a solution to a problem. And No , people are creating real enemies because they can destroy them.

Its the easiest. No thinking required, just a tiny little movement of one index finger.

For some occasions you are correct . Midless fights with no objective , there the solution is compromise , cooperation. On another occasion :
Ofcourse it requires thinking. I am stronger , i kill you , i win. Solution. Don't take is as simple i present it , its a metaphor for all similar events on a granter scale.

I personally don't like that solution.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Objectivism advocates use of force to defend your rights, and when somebody uses force against you. Provide a direct Ayn Rand's quote supporting what you just said (like I did with the human haters), or admit you're a liar...

Provide me with bacon or admit that you're a murderer... You know, internet demands count for very little. Not to mention that your idea of "direct quote" was citing the Objectivism wiki.

But anyway: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5502412&postcount=17
You failed to answer my later questions in that thread, too. So here's another internet demand: Provide me with answers or paint your house yellow.

(False dichotomy much?)
Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If the guys in Kabul are imaginary enemies then they shouldn't be brought in the discussion as an example.

Imaginary? You know why the US invaded Afghanistan, right?

Yes and No. Yes people are underestimating their mind and create imaginary enemies and imaginary thorns that don't allow them to bring a solution to a problem. And No , people are creating real enemies because they can destroy them.

First, theres the thought that X is my enemy. Then what follows is action, which puts the thought in the mind of X that I am his enemy, and then what follows is action from him, which reinforces the thought in my mind....and on and on and on and on. Its possible to break free of the chain and regain mental autonomy. The process of freeing yourself from that cycle also begins with a thought.

 

[scy12]

Imaginary? You know why the US invaded Afghanistan, right?

First, theres the thought that X is my enemy. Then what follows is action, which puts the thought in the mind of X that I am his enemy, and then what follows is action from him, which reinforces the thought in my mind....and on and on and on and on. Its possible to break free of the chain and regain mental autonomy. The process of freeing yourself from that cycle also begins with a thought.

Imaginary? You know why the US invaded Afghanistan, right?

Are all guys in Kabul or Afqanese , that felt the consequences of war, enemies ?

First, theres the thought that X is my enemy. Then what follows is action, which puts the thought in the mind of X that I am his enemy, and then what follows is action from him, which reinforces the thought in my mind....and on and on and on and on. Its possible to break free of the chain and regain mental autonomy. The process of freeing yourself from that cycle also begins with a thought

Indeed , but again you need two parties willing to cooperate . When that chain - circle is created there are two opposing factions and again we have the prisoner's dillema. You can't free yourself for that cycle , hence at a point the enemies choose you. But you can free yourself from that cycle if the enemies aren't "real" , more or less or both sides are willing to cooperate.

 

[LordRahl]

Provide me with bacon or admit that you're a murderer... You know, internet demands count for very little. Not to mention that your idea of "direct quote" was citing the Objectivism wiki.

But anyway: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5502412&postcount=17
You failed to answer my later questions in that thread, too. So here's another internet demand: Provide me with answers or paint your house yellow.

(False dichotomy much?)

Just as I thought - a liar...
Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Communisto]

the beatles really aren't THAT good.