No, evil is not just doing bad things that we have a genetic predisposition for, but doing wrong that we know to be wrong. Eternal progress is found in overcoming our natural tendencies.
god: malevolent, powerless or non-existant?
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So if when theists say these words, they don't mean the "human definitions", what definitions are they based on? Can they be translated into English?
Does this mean that God _isn't_ benevolent - by the "human definition", after all then? Shouldn't we use another word for this, rather than misleadingly portraying God in this way?
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
No Warpus, that's rationalization.
Furthermore, it's personal belief, emphasis on personal. Pray for yourself if you really want to find out.
Worked great for me.
Well, you and my Muslim friend can't both be right. At least one of you must be wrong.. hmmmmmmmm.
Eran of Arcadia said:
And you don't question this as.. suspicious?
especially considering how many Mormons there are on this planet.Don't you think you'd b saying exactly the same thing about Hinduism if you were born in India?
Surely what seems right to you would be different in that case and would not lead you towards Mormonism.
It may not *just* be that, but it includes that. As well as natural evil.
No one is complaining that there exists evil in the sense of people doing things they choose and know to be wrong - the problem is the existence of evil which is not related to free will.
nihilistic
Intergalatic Delivery Boy
Or you could go with the ancient Greek answer of disputing that singular noun you used. If a deity exists there is no reason to assume or insist that another cannot. The quarreling gods of Mount Olympus sounds a lot more reasonable than the monolithic unique god theory.
Another question that I have always wondered on this topic - if we assume that "God has his mysterious reasons for allowing evil, even though we don't know what it is, and we have no evidence for any of this, we just assume it because we like puzzles", why do so many theists pray for help? Surely, he has his reasons for you suffering?
I can't see how it's both that on the one hand we should love and worship and pray to God because he loves us and will help us, but at the same time you claim he won't help us because he "has his reasons"...
I can't see how it's both that on the one hand we should love and worship and pray to God because he loves us and will help us, but at the same time you claim he won't help us because he "has his reasons"...
Nylan
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Well, you and my Muslim friend can't both be right. At least one of you must be wrong.. hmmmmmmmm.
And you don't question this as.. suspicious?
Don't you think you'd b saying exactly the same thing about Hinduism if you were born in India?
Surely what seems right to you would be different in that case and would not lead you towards Mormonism.
Not at all. We believe they don't have the spirit confirming to them that they are right, and they've never claimed to have any sort of feelings like we have gotten (to the best of my knowledge), furthermore they do not have the priesthoof of God.
So no, not a problem. Makes sense to me. But then again, that's based on my beliefs and my faith that it makes sense.
Nylan
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Some suffering is to help us grow stronger or to teach us lessons about life. Asking for help builds faith as well. Sometimes the two go hand in hand. Oftentimes the suffering can be relieved if you only ask, but you still have to ask. Thus it is a trial.
Not all suffering, of course. Some suffering, for whatever God's purposes, has to happen for our betterment in ways we can't yet comprehend. That sort of suffering he won't relieve, because he wants what is best for us, and we may not realize what we are asking.
Nylan
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I hate to triple...
Suffering and evil are not the same thing. What you see as "natural evil" is suffering, which has it's purposes. (See my previous post)
Suffering and evil are not the same thing. What you see as "natural evil" is suffering, which has it's purposes. (See my previous post)
Margim
Footy's back.
Any of the statements in the initial post are possible. No one knows enough about God to argue the point one way or the other. But some thoughts...
If evil were taken away, would humans still complain about those things that were 'less good' than those things we regarded as 'more good'? Are we the one's that create polarisations and dichotemies, where to God, all that exists simply 'is'?
Seems to me that Epicurus had a predetermined notion of what a God/god should be. No one's questioned why God should be any or all of those things.
In that case, is evil just a creation of the human mind and action? Perhaps, by nature of human existance, evil is not something God can get rid of... it is, essentially, up to us.
If evil were taken away, would humans still complain about those things that were 'less good' than those things we regarded as 'more good'? Are we the one's that create polarisations and dichotemies, where to God, all that exists simply 'is'?
Seems to me that Epicurus had a predetermined notion of what a God/god should be. No one's questioned why God should be any or all of those things.
In that case, is evil just a creation of the human mind and action? Perhaps, by nature of human existance, evil is not something God can get rid of... it is, essentially, up to us.
Nylan
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Is this analysis before or after reading the whole thread? Some of these are commented on, but I suppose at the same time you may just be reiterating some previous points as your own beliefs.
Just curious
Evil is a necessary step to human enlightenment. I don't think we could grow as human beings without conquering it through God. Now, I don't share this belief with all Christians, but if God is all-knowing and benevolent this would fit.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
Is it not possible that different paths are right for different people? That we can all be "right"?
Nylan
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Well, you share it with me
There must be opposition in all things. How else would we appreciate light without darkness? Joy without pain? Fullness without hunger?
My belief is that God allows "evil" because He wanted us to choose to go to Heaven under our own will- He didn't want us to be like angels, under His absolute command. Heaven and Hell exists because His perfection don't allow Him to be near sin; whoever accepts Him will be pardoned and vice versa.
Well, you share it with me
Cool. I'm a strong believer in fate, so the necessary Fall theory is much of an offshoot of that.
Nylan said:
I believe there will be a time when darkness and pain and hunger will fade away and light will return in full, but to an extent I also believe that the Fall was necessary to give us the wisdom to appreciate good.
Nylan
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Same here. I'm pleasently suprised
I also don't believe that man is responsible for Adam's sin, that we all are judged according to our own actions, not those of others.
Whether we call it "suffering" or "natural evil" is just arguing word definitions - the point is still the same, why does suffering exist if God is all-powerful and all-loving. Whilst some suffering can help us grow stronger, I'm not sure that in general, natural disasters are things that help us. Well, unless you resort to "God has his reasons but we have no idea what they are".
It's possible, I just don't understand why people believe things without evidence that are seemingly contradictory, just to leave us with an extra question we can't answer? It's like believing that there's a pig which can fly faster than the speed of light, and then debating how a pig can travel faster than the speed of light.
Nylan
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I've answered that in previous posts, so I won't reiterate it here.
Faith is the key point here. Trusting that things are true without proof is faith. Trust is important in any relationship. Trust in God and God's decisions is critical to a successful relationship with God.
I'm not trying to prove anything, merely pointing out the train of thought I possess that helps things make sense for me. I can't make anyone believe anything. I don't want to make anyone believe anything. I want them to make a decision for themselves.
Faith is the key point here. Trusting that things are true without proof is faith. Trust is important in any relationship. Trust in God and God's decisions is critical to a successful relationship with God.
I'm not trying to prove anything, merely pointing out the train of thought I possess that helps things make sense for me. I can't make anyone believe anything. I don't want to make anyone believe anything. I want them to make a decision for themselves.
I am willing to accept the chance that I am wrong, yes. I mean, I haven't really talked to anyone from a different religion who explains their faith in the same terms we do, but I suppose it is possible. But I am not going to believe based on what others feel - I am going to believe based on what I feel. After all, I don't even have proof they exist.
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