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Going for Gold: Corporations

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by pineappledan, Jan 23, 2019.

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Are Corporations in a good state of balance?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    27.3%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    72.7%
  1. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Hexxon already has 3 Strategic Resources for unlocking; I don't think we should be adding even more. In fact, I've been thinking about redistributing exactly those to the other Corps, especially if G agrees to make strategic monopolies (instead of global) work for unlocking to reduce the luck factor for getting Corps.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Strategic monopolies as the unlock for corps defeats the theme of the monopoly system I created.

    G
     
  3. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    How so? If the argument is that only one kind of monopoly should unlock Corps, then this is already defeated because global Luxury Monopolies are far easier to attain than global Strategic Monopolies and are thus not of the same kind.

    I am suggesting to compensate for this difference in ease of obtainment by allowing strategic monopoly unlocks only for strategic resources.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Obviously I have misinterpreted the intent of hexxon then. I had understood it as a special brand of superwide, militaristic corporation because it had 3/5 of the strategic resources on it
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
    Bromar1 likes this.
  5. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    tfw Exxon is the modern equivalent of the British East India Company.
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Everyone agreed that Hexxon was awful, do you think after a buff with +3 production its better? I also think shifting Firaxite Material strategic resources to Hexxon make more sense, and give them as bonus Ressource as franchise bonus too, but increase the amount of necessary franchises for one tick a bit.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Did they? I recall them being middle of the pack.

    G
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    They are middle of the pack if they are doing what I think they are meant to do, which is be a wide/militaristic option. If you aren't a warmonger then +30%:c5production: on units is sort of wasted on you. Right now you can be in a position where you are playing a tall, peaceful game, but you started with the Perfume monopoly, so your corporation provides little benefit to you, aside from its raw hammers.

    The bonuses on Hexxon are overtly bellicose, and locking it to strategic resources ensures that only people who have gobbled up enough territory to unlock strategic monopolies are likely to build it. This puts peaceful Incense/Perfume empires in a weird position where they aren't likely to use their corporation much.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    A militaristic civ will get more out of it, sure, but 30% unit production still helps small empires stay militarily-relevant. The monopoly system is definitely a wide-oriented gameplay mechanic - the fact that a smaller, more peaceful empire will have limited corporation options is not intrinsically problematic, it's largely a trade off based on the choices they made.

    G
     
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    And I thought the Draft Registration tenet from freedom was especially made for small, peaceful empires to let them purchase every unit they need, and now there's a claim Hexxon is useful for such empires? Even production bonus is useless if your supposed to buy most of your units?

    A trade off the choice they made? You mean, not immidiatly restarting the game if you start with a monopoly you never really want? Do I have to go warmonger with Arabia or Austria if I have a Hexxon monopoly somewhere in the far future?
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Amazingly, you can do both purchases and production in cities! Very cool.

    Your ability to jump to extremes is impressive.

    G
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I win games when I don't get a corporation at all. You are free to totally overreact and reroll a start because of a tiny detail that won't matter for 200 turns, but a good player wouldn't.
     
  13. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Why should I care what you were able in previous versions, if the future version will field exponential growing corporations in the field. Would you be able to still win, if your 20-city enemy is able to generate 75 science per city by franchise only? Its that what could happen, if Gazebo had made the formula with 1:1 franchise/office.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yes.

    You are free to reroll your starts as Arabia 1,000 times until you get a situation where you can get every single synergy you want. But when you miss one of those synergies, its not a balance issue. A good player adapts to the situation they are in. When something comes up and ruins a plan, its good design, not bad.
     
    civplayer33 likes this.
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Franchises will be boosting resources that I have the monopoly to cities where they don't have the monopoly, only possibly some related stuff...

    I like franchises giving something in return, but this doesn't sound good to me.

    In an economic sense, I would expect corporations opening franchises where they can benefit from their monopolized stuff. I mean, benefitting the corporation owner. As others have pointed out, the local benefit of a franchise should be extra work or income. Working like a customs house that benefit from incoming trade routes would be fitting.

    I think it would thematic and more interesting if a franchise gave:
    1. A bonus to trade routes sent by the corporation owner, giving extra yields to the origin city, based on the presence of corporation related resources in the city where there's a franchise.
    2. A bonus to the city where there is a franchise, giving extra yields when there's an active trade route from the corporation owner.

    This way, the corporation owner will consider the presence of the resources in any city before trying establish a franchise there, and the other player will lose any bonuses from the franchise in case of mutual war.
     
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  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The likelihood that a corporation civ owns every single resource of every monopoly resource for a corporation is really low...

    In any case this is just too complicated. The current model works because it’s fairly trivial to manage with the Ui resources available to us. I don’t want to reinvent the wheel.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yep, but with your suggestion I might be trying to skip sending trade routes towards cities with such resources, when it should be the opposite.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think you’re overthinking it. The office gets more bonuses than the franchise ever will. This is simply an easy way to buff franchises slightly without making it too complicated for the player.

    G
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I just think it may introduce undesirable dynamics, but I guess this may be a drawback for not increasing coding work too much. Thanks for considering it, though.
     
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  20. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Could I ask a more elementary question about corporations?
    What are offices supposed to be? I mean, what would be their real world counterpart? Iam pretty sure your answer will be: "offices", cause their called that, but the way they are generating profits isn't like an office in the real world would do.
    Offices which are founded by the corporation are founded to organize, distribute and advertise the corporation. They cost maintenance, but they are necessary to run the corporation. So the change Gazebo recently made (Offices increaes franchise limit) would be a correct response to the real world. But its really unlikely such offices would generate directly profit/yields, but instead increase the capacity to maintain a greater corporation and with it, yields to the corporation headquarter.

    I mean, imagine an office, which is responsible for two franchises in a foreign country. Lets say the profit of those franchises is directed towards the office and not directly to the headquarter, founding another office wouldnt generate the same amount of profit as the first office would generate. The profit/benefits would be split to two offices, but not duplicated. Cause, why should the franchise be able to sell now double the amount of goods/services as before (or lets say, its really unlikely).

    And the resulting profit to the offices are also questionable. Franchises didnt deliver anything towards their offices/headquarter, except paymant to use the name/buildings/products. Always payment, in Civ yields, gold. Look at McDonalds. Their franchises sell food and it make sense, such a corporation increase the food generation in the delivering cities (in this case, offices work like a agricultural network or manufactories). But in the same time, the greatest part of this additional food is removed, cause it is sold to the franchises. So, it make no real sense offices increase the food generation in the own cities to such a great amount while the franchise, which should gain the greatest part of the food, only get small numbers.

    Its also questionable, which form of franchise would generate science in the home corporation. In most cases, laboratories, universities and offices for engineering are a great source of science, but its hard to imagine, which form of franchise would be such a thing in real world.

    I know, not everything has to be represented 100% real world like in the game, but the way how corporation works in the game, is so distorted to me, that it was keeping me occupied the whole day.
    And I think, it wouldnt be that difficult to create a relativly close representation of corporations and franchises in the game, that it could be maybe changed into that direction, if the results of the current change werent satisfying.

    The headquarter wonder would give its general advantages to the player, like it is now, and the city which constructed the wonder, is the center of the franchise benefits.
    Offices would would be cheaper to maintain and give small advantages, like +10% production/science/food/...... and strong extra yields on corporation linked luxuries, but mainly increase the amount of maximum franchises by, lets say 3.
    Foreign cities with a franchise get a flat amount and/or a small modifier of the linked yield (like +2 :c5science: and +2% :c5science:)
    Every franchise in a foreign city grants greater benefits in the corporation headquarter city (+4 :c5science: and +3% :c5science: OR +3:c5goldenage: and +3% longer GA OR +4:c5production: and +5% unit production OR +4:c5gold: and +1 :trade: for every 15 franchises OR ...)
    The spreading mechanic could stay as it will be after the next patch, but with maybe 10% base spreading chance to random foreign city.

    These are only my thoughts about a comparison of corporations in real world and in game, and how it could be made more realistic, without changing too much (The mentioned mechanics are already in use in the corporations). Small corporations are still competitive against corporations of wide empires, but wide empires have a much greater growing potential in the end
     

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