Going for Gold: Pantheons

[Gidoza]

Hunt may be stronger than renewal, but I consider Hunt to be a forest/tundra option, whereas renewal is better for jungle/near jungle starts.

G

I won't seny this (there's nothing else to pick in jungle-only). However, having nothing else to pick doesn't make it good or balanced.

 

[CrazyG]

Hunt might be slower, but I often like to restart games and try with other Pantheons, and a decent Hunt start always crushes renewal both in short and long run. The bonus food really helps Hunt to get more pop to work more tiles to get you stronger: Renewal will at best match Hunt in the short run, and can surpass it in the very long run if you have tons and tons of jungles and forests, but isn't worth not improving tiles forever. A banana with a granary will push you to 3 food, but that isn't going to be enough growth to push you to a high enough population fast enough to found, anyways.

When I take renewal, I'm usually on jungle with a plantation, so its not competing with the camp pantheon. With that said, the strength of renewal is that you don't need to improve tiles. If you are taking renewal and then spamming workers and camp improvements, you are doing it wrong (the social policy choices might be different too). I probably build settlers with renewal where the Goddess of the Hunt path was building workers. What are you improving, deer? Spending 80 hammers to get +1 food? Nah just spam settlers and let them produce cheap culture and faith for you. You shouldn't miss religion with renewal if the land is appropriate for it.

I think I would have lost like half the games I chose it in if I had to take something generic like Goddess of Wisdom instead. Also its nice to have options available just in case someone takes hunt before you do.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I think Goddess of renewal is a strong pantheon too. You immidiatly get faith and culture after the pick and didn't need any improvements. You place a city and like 5 turns later you can have a city which is already generating faith and culture. That's so easy and still able to grow more into the late game, making it one of my favorite picks if I start in jungle or forest.

 

[Gidoza]

Hmmm...perhaps I'm concentrating too much on my capital with it (as building a Settler prevents it from growing, this reduing yields); I found this limiting but we'll see I guess.

 

[Owlbebach]

building a Settler prevents it from growing, this reduing yields

Not building cities also reduces yields. I usually build like 5 Settlers in a row once my capital reaches 3 or 4 population. Each turn you wait before you start a Settler delays ALL of your next cities by 1 turn, so if you started your Settler 7-8 turns later - it is equal to loosing 1 building in all of your future cities. Not saying that you should not do that, but you should really know what you're doing if you want to delay Settlers.

 

[Guynemer]

I agree re: renewal, I almost always found with it, provided that I have chosen it intelligently (early scouts have found a ton of forested area that is easy to colonize and food rich). It's generally a decent pick, or better than that if you are playing the Iroquois.

 

[Gazebo]

Current testing pantheon changes based on the AI, trying for very light touches...

God of War: slightly buffed (200->225%)
Goddess of Wisdom: Dropped +1 GAP
God of the Sea: -1fo on coastal cities, but +1fa

 

[pineappledan]

God of War: slightly buffed (200->225%)

I don't think this really addresses the problem, which is that it's a very feast or famine pantheon, and you often don't know which it will be until it's too late. You are often forced to pick a pantheon before you have a good sense of how many barbs are on your continent, and before you know how vulnerable your neighbors are.
People were angling more for a reduction of the kill bounty, and some small source of constant yields.

God of the Sea: -1fo on coastal cities, but +1fa

I wonder if this won't be too much faith? I guess we'll try it. I'm guessing that moving a yield to unimproved resources took too much text?

 

[Gazebo]

I don't think this really addresses the problem, which is that it's a very feast or famine pantheon, and you often don't know which it will be until it's too late. You are often forced to pick a pantheon before you have a good sense of how many barbs are on your continent, and before you know how vulnerable your neighbors are.
People were angling more for a reduction of the kill bounty, and some small source of constant yields.

I wonder if this won't be too much faith? I guess we'll try it. I'm guessing that moving a yield to unimproved resources took too much text?

Considering the value of early war as a snowball mechanic, 'feast or famine' is precisely the risk you take with God of War. I think it's fine IMO, I think it defies the role of the pantheon to become any more of a passive player.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is goddess of wisdom really deserving of another nerf? I've already stopped taking it, I'm not sure it needs even less of a reason to pick it up.

 

[Gazebo]

Is goddess of wisdom really deserving of another nerf? I've already stopped taking it, I'm not sure it needs even less of a reason to pick it up.

I feel like the GAP is superfluous - I’m fiddling with the faith per science yield scaler a bit, though.

G

 

[Gidoza]

Current testing pantheon changes based on the AI, trying for very light touches...

God of War: slightly buffed (200->225%)
Goddess of Wisdom: Dropped +1 GAP
God of the Sea: -1fo on coastal cities, but +1fa

I worry about Goddess of Wisdom (I already did). While it's very useful early on, it's scaling is awful. Compare with God of Commerce that has no Faith cap and can generate obscene amounts of Faith (that's why you pick it). Wisdom's original style was too strong before, but I'm thinking the cap should be like "6 Faith per city" instead of "25 total" so there always room for that Faith to grow. Or by pop or whatever.

 

[Bromar1]

Is goddess of wisdom really deserving of another nerf? I've already stopped taking it, I'm not sure it needs even less of a reason to pick it up.

I only ever take it if I start on high production terrain (too much science and food is dangerous for happiness, need hammers or gold to build newly researched buildings) AND have lots of room to expand AND have mid game UU or UB

It's just not good if you are playing tall or aggressive. I can only make it work if I can quickly and peacefully expand to a lot of cities without need for lots of units. The niche feels smaller than other pantheons

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I only ever take it if I start on high production terrain (too much science and food is dangerous for happiness, need hammers or gold to build newly researched buildings) AND have lots of room to expand AND have mid game UU or UB

It's just not good if you are playing tall or aggressive. I can only make it work if I can quickly and peacefully expand to a lot of cities without need for lots of units. The niche feels smaller than other pantheons

I believe Goddess of Wisdom deserved a buff, not a nerf. Even in the situation you mention I think Ancestor Worship could be better, or some terrain-related pantheons. While they'd take time to upgrade, they'd not fade out so hard later on - the yields here are early, but not impressive early. I'd just rather take GoAC and feel stronger, not forced to do any sort of tactic.

I think the nerf originates from AI's performance, and I have a suspicion why. From my experience Ethiopia always takes Goddess of Wisdom despite the synergy just not existing as the pantheon would do far better in the hands of some early +science per building civ (Assyria, Babylon), not +tech civ, and AI typically does very well with Ethiopia, so the data must show AIs that take Goddess of Wisdom overperforming. It might be a far-reaching assumption, but I cannot remember a game Ethiopia didn't take Goddess of Wisdom and I cannot remember a game they did particularly bad in, so I don't see why they wouldn't be doing the same thing in Gazebo's test games.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I believe Goddess of Wisdom deserved a buff, not a nerf. Even in the situation you mention I think Ancestor Worship could be better, or some terrain-related pantheons. While they'd take time to upgrade, they'd not fade out so hard later on - the yields here are early, but not impressive early. I'd just rather take GoAC and feel stronger, not forced to do any sort of tactic.

I think the nerf originates from AI's performance, and I have a suspicion why. From my experience Ethiopia always takes Goddess of Wisdom despite the synergy just not existing as the pantheon would do far better in the hands of some early +science per building civ (Assyria, Babylon), not +tech civ, and AI typically does very well with Ethiopia, so the data must show AIs that take Goddess of Wisdom overperforming. It might be a far-reaching assumption, but I cannot remember a game Ethiopia didn't take Goddess of Wisdom and I cannot remember a game they did particularly bad in, so I don't see why they wouldn't be doing the same thing in Gazebo's test games.

The cap for wisdom is really questionable. And I fear the possibility Gazebo will do a cap for God of Commerce too instead of removing it from wisdom. The removal of the GAP doesn't hurt, cause it was relative useless early game anyway. A change of the science:faith ratio will not change anything for me, in my eyes, it's a relative weak pantheon. 1 science per city is nothing, if other pantheon like open sky, renewal or hunt generate reliable amounts of culture in each city.

 

[Owlbebach]

I thik Wisdom is fine. It is more a situational Pantheonm you do not take it for any civ. But it is very good due to its science boost, for example with Maya or Assyria, or some other civ, that has something very powerful in Classical Era

 

[Gazebo]

I believe Goddess of Wisdom deserved a buff, not a nerf. Even in the situation you mention I think Ancestor Worship could be better, or some terrain-related pantheons. While they'd take time to upgrade, they'd not fade out so hard later on - the yields here are early, but not impressive early. I'd just rather take GoAC and feel stronger, not forced to do any sort of tactic.

I think the nerf originates from AI's performance, and I have a suspicion why. From my experience Ethiopia always takes Goddess of Wisdom despite the synergy just not existing as the pantheon would do far better in the hands of some early +science per building civ (Assyria, Babylon), not +tech civ, and AI typically does very well with Ethiopia, so the data must show AIs that take Goddess of Wisdom overperforming. It might be a far-reaching assumption, but I cannot remember a game Ethiopia didn't take Goddess of Wisdom and I cannot remember a game they did particularly bad in, so I don't see why they wouldn't be doing the same thing in Gazebo's test games.

When testing, I cheat and force all civs to have the same pantheon, or force certain civs to have different pantheons, for control. Goddess of Wisdom (and Commerce), have some issues with scaling. I'm considering a slight rethink on those, because they scale oddly.

What if we make them 'local,' and drop the scaling quite a bit, capping it on city population? So, it'd be something like "each city produces +1 faith for every 3 science it produces, capping at half the city's population.' Rough numbers, but you get the idea. Give it more early value, less late-game value.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

That seems cool, but wouldn't ancestor worship/god king or Dagda the allfighter all have a similar scaling issue? Do they not pose the same problems?

 

[Gazebo]

That seems cool, but wouldn't ancestor worship/god knig or Dagda the allfighter all have a similar scaling problem? Do they not pose the same problems?

No, because they scale on pop, not a yield:yield ratio. Pop doesn't blow the f- up like science does in the mid/late game

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

When testing, I cheat and force all civs to have the same pantheon, or force certain civs to have different pantheons, for control. Goddess of Wisdom (and Commerce), have some issues with scaling. I'm considering a slight rethink on those, because they scale oddly.

What if we make them 'local,' and drop the scaling quite a bit, capping it on city population? So, it'd be something like "each city produces +1 faith for every 3 science it produces, capping at half the city's population.' Rough numbers, but you get the idea. Give it more early value, less late-game value.

G

How would this increase the early value? Unless I have a science improvement luxury, I would need to research writing and build a library in my city to reach the threshold of 3 science to get one faith. And it woud stay at this value for a too long time. Ancestor worship would be the much better option, you didnt need any building to get the faith, only pop. And it also gives culture on a tier 1 tech building and decent science boost if using specialists.